[engine_work] Project Sarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Mini update and idea for checking.

 

Miles has the now clean 1.9CTi gearbox, which should be lovingly restored for 16th March with a plate diff tucked away inside.

 

Once that bad boy's back, with a little help from my little friends, Kyepan, Batfink and maybe even Josh (and anyone else for that matter) we can refit the clutch, attach gearbox to engine, fit starter motor and drop Fred ( ) in. This relies on me getting the iron top engine mount bridge from Anthony at the curry meet, but I have the engine crane sorted. Just a trolley jack for support from below will help installation. (Justin?)

 

As I have the Megasquirt box now, Anthony will get his mitts inside it and prep it for running off the 60-2 (lightened) flywheel sensor and give me some steerage I hope on connectivity, and the plug it needs, which I believe is a standard parallel port? I'm still not phased by the building of the loom persay but need some guidance on what outputs do what and whether to pair the injectors or batch fire them?

 

Ref the latter: the use of an ICV (idle control valve) is the most complex issue at the moment and there is another thread on that. Current standing is either swap to a Bosch (which groovy Miles has done) which should be more reliable and the connectivity will be known / use the standard '6 ICV with some tech knowhow from SuperJosh (if he has the reference documents) or perhaps use a more basic method like a standard SAD (supplementary air device).

 

My home made catch tank is prep'd (just needs a lick of paint - you'll see) and all the breather route has been sussed via an 8valve or S16 oil filler. It's positioning is open to debate at the moment as I am planning to resite (and replace) the naff yellow plastic expansion tank for something clever that I've seen on an S16 installed 205, because I want (no I MUST) make my beautiful MO FO of a Volvo 20valve airbox fit.

 

This airbox has one major outlet for the '6 TB (same huuuuge diameter) and two 'unfiltered side' feeds for cold air from {a} N/S low valence driving light apeture and {b} behind the N/S headlight. The O/S valence vent will purely vent cold air into the engine bay. It's a thing of beauty my box () and WILL fit! The headlight feed is because it's a good feed and if I have to ford I don't want to suffocate Fred due to the valence apature being submerged.

 

Cooling fan wise, I've made the below diagram for forum checking and to perhaps help others, because it's a subject which is often asked about. This layout inlcudes double belt and braces of an override switch and an ECU controlled back-up.

 

Points to note:

{A} Is the lower temp activated side (goes to resisted - low fan speed power feed)

{B} Hi temp switched side - direct 12v power to fan

{C} Dash switch just earths the relay {D}'s low tension side activating the fan which....

(D) ....because the relay's low tension positive side is on an ignition switched live, the fan can't be left on by accident

and

{E} Some MS ECU's - perhaps not mine - have spare, assignable outputs (usually to earth) which I can tap in to {C}, relay side of the switch such that (by installing a rule in the ECU), when coolant temp = X then activate fan. Again this will turn off with the ignition and will be set at a last resort temp a few degrees higher than the rad switch's 'B' temp. It is also on a high fan speed.

 

Any thoughts or comments?

FanDiagramM.pdf

Edited February 26, 2008 by DrSarty

[kyepan 291]

Points to note:

{A} Is the lower temp activated side (goes to resisted - low fan speed power feed)

yes one switch setting feeds the resisted low fan speed

{B} Hi temp switched side - direct 12v power to fan

Is a straight run from the switch to the fan.

{C} Dash switch just earths the relay {D}'s low tension side activating the fan which....

its a very simple loom without a dash switch, this wire would have to go from batt pos to the switch and back to the fan, then the fan will earth from there.

(D) ....because the relay's low tension side is on ignition switched live will mean it can't be left on my accident

and

Yes It could be left on by accident, as its a direct feed from the battery and has nothing to do with the ignition.

{E} Some MS ECU's, perhaps not mine have spare, assignable outputs (usually to earth) which I can tap in to {C}, relay side of the switch such that (by installing a rule in the ECU), when coolant temp = X then activate fan. Again this will turn off with the ignition and will set at a last resort temp a few degrees higher than the rad switch's 'B' temp.

you what?!?!?

 

Any thoughts or comments?

my fave topic. comments inline

Edited February 26, 2008 by kyepan

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Justin. And doubly reassuring is that with a few cans of Red Stripe last night, I 'read' the 205 Haynes manual, paying particular attention to the wiring diagram's fan circuit. It is correct, and my additional connections for dash override & ECU safety are simple and are correct as well. Nice .

 

Just trying to bring things together reference engine management (a Megasquirt II vers 3 to control fuel, spark and idle air), I stated that the '6 ICV connectivity was causing me some concerns. See the thread here.

 

But after lots of Megasquirt Manual & FAQ reading, it's all making sense and is probably best explained by a few pictures. I'm not saying it's simple, but it really is not that difficult when you put your mind to it.

 

How injectors work - I will either 'bank' fire mine 1&4, 2&3 or 'batch', i.e. all 4 all at once

 

And here is one all singing and dancing MSIIv3 connection diagram - Even shows the main loom connector pins, including the now not so scary ICV (Stepper IAC)

 

Going to start making up the loom this weekend now I've learned what I have and will double check my loom/MS plans with Anthony on Friday, simply because he's great.

Edited February 27, 2008 by DrSarty

[danpug 1]

Who is going to do the final map on the meqasquirt when all is finished?

[welshpug 1,627]

Just a quick observation, all the Lambda sensor's I've come across have been 4 wire (power, earth and 2 to the ecu)

 

does the Megasquirt system work it differently?

Edited February 27, 2008 by welshpug

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Who is going to do the final map on the meqasquirt when all is finished?

 

I am hoping that Sandy will come and play. He's keen to fiddle with MS I believe and would do it in conjunction with Bernie at NTR in Slough.

 

I'm just really greatful for anyone who has MS experience to step in at this stage. Malachy's not too far away from me and Mad Prof has always been helpful by e-chat. Anthony seems clued up as usual as well. So all in all there seems to be load of support.

 

But this does not mean that I am not crapping myself .

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

More bits coming in.

 

The Tran-X Plate Diff is with Miles for fitting now.

 

Also.......I've sold out! ...and found <www.diyautotune.com> who support MS users with everything from ready to assemble ECUs, pre-built jobbies, extra mod components (like the second ignition coil VB921 IC I need - $9.50 - ) and support items like Innovate LC1 Lambda kits and the pre-built 12foot loom I've just bought.

 

 

I figure that as the pound is so strong, £30 for a pre-made loom, with colour coded wires, pre-printed every few inches with what they connect to (because I'm a dork) and components such as shielded ignition input wire and DB37 MS connector already professionally fitted is 'even Stevens' or maybe even cheaper than sourcing all of the wires, making labels, the DB37 connector, a new soldering iron, solder etc etc etc and doing it myself. I can live with the shame, believe me.

 

Here are the DB37 (big 37 pin connector like a parallel port) pin-outs, to support the large coloured wiring diagram I posted earlier.

 

What I have to do - perhaps with Anthony's help - is convert the MS to cope with the standard Mi 60-2 trigger wheel and fit the second ignition driver to run wasted spark, i.e. 2 of my coil-ignitor combos will fire each event, one spark being used and one 'wasted', flipping between 1 & 4 and 2 & 3. Each VB921 is dedicated to a pair of coils in this set-up, OR you can add another 2 VB921s and have sequential ignition, providing you fit a cam sensor like the S16 has.

 

Magnecor are making up some custom HT leads as we speak and the LS1 coil connectors, which wire up just as PeterT said like this:

...are winging their way to me for £6 ( ) as we speak.

 

I hope this is still proving interesting/useful.

Edited February 28, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,627]

Flippin eck! Loving the wiring loom and chart

 

have you tallied up how much the management costs? or have you not finished spending....

[danpug 1]

Bloody hell, cheap as chips! I'm going to be very interested to see how the ms performs and what sandy has to say about it when it comes to mapping, its great value for money.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

have you tallied up how much the management costs? or have you not finished spending....

 

Want to stop spending, but it's actually lots of small amounts...except the diff!

 

The MS was already built and less than £150. They are way over that supplied in bits!!!! My MS2v3 (running MS Extra code) will be less than £200 in total. I think that's a pretty good price, but of course everything is pros and cons. This is very flexible, cheap-skate management; but it's also very powerful and allows you to afford a nice diff.

 

Plus I wanted to do it the hard way.

 

EDIT: And I didn't produce the above diagrams, they are all robbed blindly from other websites.

Edited February 28, 2008 by DrSarty

[kyepan 291]

so how much total for the management and sensor's / ignition...

 

itemised please..

[petert 554]

Why the 1.0uF cap.?

[jackherer 543]

the pre-built 12foot loom I've just bought.

 

 

I figure that as the pound is so strong, £30 for a pre-made loom, with colour coded wires, pre-printed every few inches with what they connect to (because I'm a dork) and components such as shielded ignition input wire and DB37 MS connector already professionally fitted is 'even Stevens' or maybe even cheaper than sourcing all of the wires, making labels, the DB37 connector, a new soldering iron, solder etc etc etc and doing it myself. I can live with the shame, believe me.

 

 

I found those looms about a week ago, mine should arrive any day now

 

They are definitely better value than buying wire and soldering it yourself, I was saying to my mate last night actually, with the low $ I am effectively getting my loom made in an American sweatshop lol

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

They are definitely better value than buying wire and soldering it yourself, I was saying to my mate last night actually, with the low $ I am effectively getting my loom made in an American sweatshop lol

 

Sweet! (Can't be bothered to post a Cartman pic - but picture him). Great minds etc.......

 

PeterT: Are you dumb or what!:

 

The two capacitors are optional but recommended. The 1.0 µF capacitor on the +12V is helpful, it is similar to the one used on EDIS. What it does is provide brief energy storage for the discharge. The other capacitor will help eliminate back-fed noise to the MegaSquirt controller. Use a 100 pF to 0.001 µF cap on the TTL trigger input wire to ground. What this does is shunt extremely fast noise spikes to ground and not let them feed back to the MegaSquirt processor. The added capacitance is minimal - with the series resistance of 1,000 ohms (in the controller) and a 100 pF cap the RC 3dB time constant is 2 * π * R * C = 0.6 microseconds.

 

 

and 'TTL trigger' means?

 

Kyepan:

All of the sensors are standard. Inlet temp, TPS or are on '6 inlet. ECU coolant temp Mi one on stat housing & MAP is built in to MS.

 

MS2v3 £120

Sweatshop loom ($65) £33 (plus shipping, but I bought other stuff too)

2nd VB921 ($9.50) £5

Power protection & distribution box (homemade* - but you can buy pre-built for $40) £10

Sub total £168

 

And you could include:

Innovate LC-1 Lambda sensor complete ($199) £107ish

Grand total £275

 

*This is the bit bottom right of the MS2v3 layout diagram containing main relay, fuel pump & LC1 relay, 5 fuses (1x MS / 2x inj / 1x f pump / 1x LC1) in a nice, protected, fused power distribution box (thanks Batfink) in the engine bay taking a main feed from the boot mounted battery.

 

EDIT: Just got home for lunch to find my LC1 Lambda waiting for me. Aren't parcels (especially from far away) BRILLIANT!

Edited February 28, 2008 by DrSarty

[Super Josh 4]

and 'TTL trigger' means?

 

TTL mean Transistor to Transistor Logic. It's just the type and configuration of the ignition driver circuit used output stage of the MS ECU. I'll explain all on Friday. They do have a white board and a laser pointer in the Curry house, don't they

 

 

 

Josh

[Super Josh 4]

Okay Rich, a bit more sensor pinout

 

TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) AKA Throttle Pot. Not to be confused with the similarly names TPS on the 8V, which is a Throttle Position Switch. And just indicates the following three states, when the engine is at idle, off idle and Wide Open Throttle AKA 'Mashed into the Carpet', 'Pedal to the Metal' etc.

 

TPS Pinout

 

A Sensor Return AKA Ground or Earth.

B Supply Voltage AKA your ref +5V from the ECU.

C Signal Voltage.

 

You best go and finish the Schematic now. I want to see it pinned up on the board at the Curry House tonight

 

Do you need any more pinouts? Just shout and I'll stick them up later on.

 

 

Josh

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Geyser!

 

Expect a detailed, 76 page PowerPoint presentation, complete with hand outs and bottled water, with cheap hotel conference room biscuits.

 

Thanks buddy.

 

A few things I learned from the MS manual is that polarity is not important on typical temp sensors AND (surprisingly) injectors; just pick one for earth (if it doesn't ground through its own body) and the other for live. The MS manual says it doesn't matter, like I said even with injectors which way round you do it.

 

Nice.

[petert 554]

I'll explain all on Friday. They do have a white board and a laser pointer in the Curry house, don't they

 

I'd love to come and eat Curry with you blokes!

Edited February 29, 2008 by petert

[tom_m 0]

I'd love to come and eat Curry with you blokes!

 

it would have to be a bloody good curry to be worth the trip!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'd love to come and eat Curry with you blokes!

 

We would LOVE you to come Pete. And remember Kate's coming, and she's a 'Sheila'!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Working on the car tomorrow. I robbed an alternator bracket off an Audi today because it was awesome; having a geared cog tensioner and looking like it would withstand a 10mega tonne nuclear explosion! It still needed mod'ing, including grinding off a captive nut and welding solid at a hinge, but it was proving difficult to get the alternator to fit close to the block. Will post a picture once fitted.

 

Here's the mod'd cam cover. I love ABS sheet and hot melt glue guns (and Rover 400 series speaker grilles)

 

Here's an LC1 Lambda Kit

 

The Bosch sensor (shown last) screwed straight in the boss on my Maniflow down pipe. Sweet!

Edited February 29, 2008 by DrSarty

[vern 0]

Rich here is the link to the innovate forum you will need it!!!!!.

 

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/forums/index.php

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing bad, I have one, they can just be a bit tricky to set up, and a lot of the answers are on there, the designer/builder goes on several times a day to answer most of the queries.

[davepug205 7]

lol at the modded cam cover very well thought out IMO Id keep the rover grill bit quiet tho brilliant project so far and an excellent thread keep up the good work

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Good day today with (yet more) prep work. Engine starting to look more like an engine with certain coolant pipes attached, and the main breather between block and cam cover fitted. NGK platinum plugs in now (with a dab of oil on the threads of course), oil cooler and filter fitted and spark plug cover drilled ready for the shorter (custom) Magnecor HT leads to fit between the coils on the strut brace and the plugs deeeeeeep in the head.

 

Batfink said about cleaning the engine bay. I wasn't going to bother but I'm glad I did. I will treat the slightly flakey areas and patch/touch up paint with cherry red those bits which need it. Servo is black and even have a matching red (homemade) oil catchtank and brake fluid reservoir cap. Pacet fan shown too.

 

 

Blue bit in bulkhead is screwdriver blocking main loom grommet.

 

Will be ready for engine plus gearbox fit in a fortnight.

Edited March 2, 2008 by DrSarty

[Batfink 201]

couldnt view those pictures you sent on my phone but its looking good That bit under the servo I would really clean up the rust as I have a bit hole in my shell there at the minute..