[engine_work] Project Sarty

[Sandy 191]

Engines are like pets I think, you get excited, give them a name etc, but the toilet training is foten a messy business and it's only boring ones that live a long time.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Oh such wise words Obi Wan!

 

[28CRAIG 2]

I cant wait to here fred let rip

[James_R 3]

Engines are like pets I think, you get excited, give them a name etc, but the toilet training is foten a messy business and it's only boring ones that live a long time.

 

 

Good ethos

[welshpug 1,651]

where is it?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

In my garage. after this:

 

OK pictures, get painting:

 

Cleaned, decked and bored block

 

Shiny's good right? (Certainly expensive!)

 

Scary bit..

 

More for you tomorrow in day light. Must get busy now to go with Kate and the team to The Ring on 3rd of May (this year).

Edited February 8, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,651]

shiny is gooood I wish I could get a job somewhere like that

[vern 0]

Where's the beard gone???

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Where's the beard gone???

 

It was f&*king pump man!!! Shaved that tw@t off the minute I landed back in the UK. Probably blocked the sink in the bogs at RAF Brize Norton; but do I care? DIF!

 

BTW the bill for my engine was £2158

 

That was all labour, VAT (grrrr), Wiseco pistons, water pump, cam belt and tensioner kit, bead blasting, painting, big ends, valve seats, head skim, block bore and deck, crank check, polish and balance with lightened flywheel, 1 x custom head bolt, 9 x std XU10 bolts, one replacement S16 rod and all rod matching and fitting to gudgeon pins correctly (needed spacers), main bearings and hydraulic lifters drained and checked.

 

Assembly info (and for future ideas): Piston to Valve clearance @ TDC

 

Inlet = 8.25mm

Exhaust = 8.6mm

 

It has the DW8 (cheap man's PSA vernier) on the inlet cam but as it's different I need to mod the timing belt cover to make it fit. That is tomorrow's job.

Edited February 8, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,651]

In what way does the DW8 pulley differ? I guess the gti6 pulley wont fit if you've gone for the DW8 item.

 

not a bad price considering all the work+shiny parts, just think if you'd had to buy 6 Wiseco pistons like my mate did for a skyline last year, then found a broken rings on assembling the last piston

 

Amusingly enough they looked similar to your new pistons and were the same diameter!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

In what way does the DW8 pulley differ? I guess the gti6 pulley wont fit if you've gone for the DW8 item.

 

I wanted cheap, on rolling road cam timing ability, hence this DW8 jobbie. But, as Matt found out, because of its adjusting bolt design, they fouled against the Mi head. He made up a spacer, which in conjunction with the adjusting bolts sticking out the other side fouls on the plastic Mi cam cover.

 

A picture tomorrow of the issue and my resolution will clear it up.

[welshpug 1,651]

I have an idea what you mean, holesaw through the cover

[petert 583]

Does it still have one of my cams?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Does it still have one of my cams?

 

Yes: the stage 1 you sold me a while back for my 1.9Mi.

 

Matt commented today that with the 2.2 engine's forged pistons and longer stroke, it would quite happily cope with more duration. What are your thoughts on that please Pete?

 

I won't be doing anything else for a while, but if I can get away with more cam (selling yours on or doing an exchange) when it gets ITBs, I'd be interested in pushing this lazy road lump a bit harder.

 

Very interested to know all about the effects of a longer duration cam on this engine.

 

Rich

Edited February 8, 2008 by DrSarty

[petert 583]

Yes, the bigger engine may even have a smooth idle if the CR is high enough. Magic built a similar spec. engine for a guy in Brisbane. He's now added TB's and is wanting more camshaft! See how it goes. It will certainly have bags of torque. Having the ability to fine tune with the adj. pulley will be a plus. Even if you tune for maximum power you'll still have ample torque!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Yes, the bigger engine may even have a smooth idle if the CR is high enough. Magic built a similar spec. engine for a guy in Brisbane. He's now added TB's and is wanting more camshaft! See how it goes. It will certainly have bags of torque. Having the ability to fine tune with the adj. pulley will be a plus. Even if you tune for maximum power you'll still have ample torque!

 

That sounds reassuring. Matt seemed to remember working out a CR of 11.6:1. Sound about right?

[petert 583]

Yes, it will be around 11.5:1, so expect a fairly good idle. You can re-use the Stage I inlet cam on the exhaust and get a bigger cam for the inlet later if desired.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Mine's 11.6:1 compression.

 

It'll idle steadily at 900rpm, smoother than the standard 1.9 Mi16 engine (when the 2.3 is warmed up at least) I have in my 405.

That's with 286deg @0.1mm and 258deg @ 1mm lift cams, 12.45mm max lift and 3.8mm lift @TDC.

 

So I guess you should be able to have a really nice idle if you're running more or less road cams.

 

Will be very interesting to see what power it will make with just the stage 1 regrind on the inlet.

 

You're using std 306gti inlet manifold at the time beeing?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You're using std 306gti inlet manifold at the time being?

 

Hi Black - Yes I am (for the time being - the ITB attraction though is there, believe me )

 

And Pete's suggestion of switching his stage I inlet cam over to the exhaust when/if I choose to put a wilder inlet on is very intriguing. Would anyone quickly explain please?

 

Pete's stage I inlet cam spec attached. Quote: "Enjoy" - P Taylor

[petert 583]

It all depends what type of engine you want in the end. It's important to match the inlet and exhaust cams to get the right combination for the performance characteristics you want. For example, my Stage II grind has 10 deg. more duration at 0.050" lift than the Stage I (236 vrs 226). When used with the std. exhaust cam and std. inlet manifold, it produces heaps of torque and still has an acceptable idle (but definitely says I'm different!). If you were to change the std. exhaust cam for the Stage I grind, it would produce more top end power at the expense of some torque. It would also have a lumpier idle due to increased overlap. So re-using the inlet on the exhaust may save some $$$ if you ever decided on more inlet duration, regardless of which inlet cam you bought.

 

Swapping inlet to exhaust isn't straight forward however, as the key position is different. So you'd need an adjustable pulley and would have to set the cam timing using a dial indicator, measuring the lift at TDC.

 

If you browse through the Catcams site you'll notice that they also have smaller cams for the exhaust, for both Mi16 and GTi6 applications. They're obviously on the pace. I'm not sure Piper and Kent have done the same research.

Edited February 9, 2008 by petert

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Pete; a clear and interesting explanation. But you didn't mention exactly what the extra 10deg of duration on your stage II cam delivers. Does that replace the torque lost by swapping the stage I onto the exhaust or only benefit top end power? Healthy torque spread is really what I've always been after; any gear thrust!!!

 

My goal is still a fast road car as my competitiveness will only be shown on tame rally events (where the navigator wins) or the odd track day.

[petert 583]

The extra 10 deg. means more fuel/air in, thus bigger bang, but at higher revs. If you had 3500-7000 with the Stage I, you'd have 4000-7500 with the Stage II. They're just typical figures, which can be moved up/down by fine tuning the cams.

[Daxed 7]

Hi Black - Yes I am (for the time being - the ITB attraction though is there, believe me )

 

I swapped last night. Swapped from lying on my side in bed picturing fiddling with TB's.

 

Swapped to thinking about drizzling melted chocolate over ice cream.

 

I got 9 hrs straight DrS.

 

Even Hagan Daz would save bundles.

[Sandy 191]

If you browse through the Catcams site you'll notice that they also have smaller cams for the exhaust, for both Mi16 and GTi6 applications. They're obviously on the pace. I'm not sure Piper and Kent have done the same research.

It's seems to me that they've simply carried their Mi16 profiles over to the new engines, something they certainly did with early and later TU engines, which is a shame because the later TU heads work vastly differently to the earlier ones and the most effective profiles are entirely different.

I don't think these companies really do any significant development of their own, but they certainly make heaps of custom profiles for specific customers who are at the cutting edge of development. I don't know how "in the loop" they are about how each profile works though. John Read for example has his own range of profiles he uses, each designed to work with a specific inlet/port/valve size/exhaust geometry on each engine size. The cams he had made for the 1.8 XU 16v i'm building, have a lift curve that doesn't sit next to anything I can see in the Kent/Piper/Catcams/Newmans ranges. I very much doubt he tells them much about what set ups he uses each profile for, because there's always the risk of intellectual "leakage"!

John keeps telling me how quickly cam profile technology is moving forward and that the best cams of five years ago are archaic now! The more I get into it, the more amazed I am about how complex the relationship of the cam with the rest of the engine is. Much of the things people say about cams seems to be generic; getting the best combination of inlet/port/valve size/exhaust geometry and cam takes an enormous amount of development and is not as predictable as many experts (including cam companies) make it out to be.

But obviously in the absence of the facilities or time/budget to do that developement, it's highly advisable to follow the advice of someone with practical, actual experience of a given profile, such as PeterT!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Sandy. Thought provoking as ever.

 

Right: Whilst jobs will now slowly get completed such as getting the alternator bracketry sorted, refitting the oil cooler (Mi16 water variety), replacing the o/s engine mount bushes, fitting the new 106GTi fuel filter and fuel line and getting the lowered rad mounts sorted, planning is still happening.

 

These are the cooling system and oil/engine breather hosing requirements. Obviously both are important: overheating could be costly and poor breathing (which I've heard can plague larger displacement engines) results in poor running.

 

I think by studying the Haynes BX16valve cooling system (& bleed screw - marked 'P') diagram, shown first below, I've sussed what needs to be done. This ties in with the recent link to the thread concerning removing the rear captive pipe because I'm doing that. WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE CHECK OVER MY WORK?

 

As for the oil breathing, Matt at QEP recommended I speak to Maxi as he has experience of this problem and methods to overcome it.

 

BX16v Diagram from Haynes Manual:

 

My Extraction & Simplification from the Above: (PLEASE SCRUTINISE & COMMENT)

 

{A} is the coolant distribution union on the back of the block (mine is metal)

{B} is the thermostat & sensor housing with its 5 pipe connections (2 now not used - sealed)

{C} is the oil cooler (Mi16 variety)

{D} is the expansion tank (1 connection now not used)

{E} is the TB now not shown, as the Mi/BX one had a water heater bit the GTi6 is electrical

 

Phots of engine and work to follow.

Edited February 11, 2008 by DrSarty