[engine_work] Project Sarty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

All bits in less the forged pistons & the baffled sump. Gonna do a 'kit' photo very soon showing:

 

my head (the Mi16 head i mean not my melon ) with powder coated cam cover

the S16 block

the diesel crank (with S16 oil pump sprocket and S16 cambelt pulley fitted)

the maniflow 4-branch manifold

the GTi-6 inlet tract (complete with injectors & fuel rail etc)

the S16 con' rods

the sump spacer

the oil pump with extended pickup (drive chain coming from Deejay)

 

I will add photos of the missing items plus the Megasquirt package as and when, such that anyone wanting to do this has an idea what the hell all this terminology means and what the bits look like.

 

When I did my Mi conversion I had to learn everything from text files, phone conversations and pictures of completed conversions, along with countless hours wading through the Haynes manuals for the 205 and the Citroen BX16v. I thought it might prove useful as some I speak to who hear I'm doing this engine build, think I know alot or am some sort of mechanic when in truth I'm neither of the above.

 

Anthony who helped me today drop my 309 GTi rear beam off the car for some of his magic before I go away to Afghanistan, agreed that this should be a pretty grunty engine that is likely to be more than the 180BHP I reckoned it might produce and be edging towards, if not slightly over 200. Having said that, outright power is NOT my ultimate aim ; it's the smooth, from low down and right up the rev range delivery that I'm after coupled with the relative ease of making and being able to afford this engine conversion.

 

Engine build starts on arrival of pistons.

 

Standby

 

Rich

 

P.S. Thanks to Anthony for today and everyone else who has been so supportive in supplying parts, labour and advice.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I was gonna do a kit photo, but I don't think that's really necessary. There are some pics of interesting points however below, as the engine 'kit' complete (less the forged pistons, one pulley and the '6' baffled sump) was taken by me down to Matt at QEP.. This is to ensure a reliable, knowledgable engine build including 'fettling' of the crank (lightening and balancing with the flywheel) and the Mi head during the next 6 months whilst I'm dodging bullets, RPGs and suicide bombers elsewhere in the world.

 

A few changes have been added:

 

1) The inlet cam will have an original Peugeot DW8 diesel engine adjustable cam timing pulley (parts 0805 90 & 91, toothed wheel and hub respectively) FYI. Aim at the moment is second hand items (of course ). This will give us the option to not only get dead on cam timing as per PeterT's specs if needed, but to allow a small amount of flexibility of cam timing advancement or retarding on the rolling road to tailor the power delivery. Nice!

 

2) The forged pistons with the altered gudgeon pin height (to cope with the longer throw of the 92mm diesel crank) are soon arriving, as is 16v205's GTi6 baffled sump complete with windage tray; both items travelling direct to QEP. I learned that the windage tray helps avoid oil frothing and is basically a shielding plate which sits just below the crank and between the oil sitting in the sump. Standard on a '6' apparently and Peugeot are pretty good engineers although their build quality can be questionable at times .

 

3) The Mi head's previous work wasn't much cop! as in it certainly didn't seem to have the triple-cut valve seats I'd been told it had. I plucked the valves etc out last night so Matt could do an inspection and test assembly, and that was the first thing he noticed. Hey ho....it's getting T-C valves now and Matt's gonna give it some magic prior to assembly to remove some factory anomolies which also shouldn't have been there.

 

Other than that we're still with the game plan. I'm looking forward to building and setting up the Megasquirt and coil packs, but am currently not too knowledgable about whether the standard GTi6 injectors are gonna restrict the ultimate power output. I may need red-tops to reduce the duty cycle which I fear the '6' ones will be nearing rather than staying below 80% as I believe is advised.

 

Should be collecting this engine just before the Christmas break to install in a freezing cold garage with a forum buddy or two (I hope)

 

Anyway. Pictures:

Here's the S16 block with its 5 crank main bearing caps (terminology?)

 

And the S16 crank (bottom) compared to the XU11D (2.1diesel) crank. It slotted straight in which was nice as the end casting (arrowed) which fixes to the end of the block was identical (luvverly)....

 

and the diesel crank's flywheel mounting is identical = no faffing

 

but the oil pump sprocket is smaller and the cam belt pulley is similar but missing the end casting and is being swapped over for the S16 parts I fudged off Deejay from Portsmouth

 

The S16 pistons and con rods - keeping the rods for the forged pistons and sending the old pistons to their next life

 

Whereas 2off S16 oil pumps will become one here to make sure the extended pickup is used (highlighted in red)

 

The mods'll go nuts if I post anymore pics. But if anyone would like to ask me about anything, have a picture of a sump spacer or such to help them understand what the hell I'm doing, then feel free to ask.

 

Adios - until Christmas and mega vroom.

 

DrS

Edited June 5, 2007 by DrSarty

[Doof 11]

Looking good Sarty, keep the updates coming

[Baz 421]

Excellent thread Rich, mucho useful Info!

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

sounds like real progress is being made Rich, wish I could say the same , sat waiting on parts and money now.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Looks really nice this Rich!

 

About the oilpump sprocket it's much smaller on the 2.1 TD as the 2.1 engine uses a different oilpump with bigger internal gears.

 

So as long as you just use all the S16 parts including cam-pulley etc. it's all gonna be fine.

It's almost like seeing my engine beeing built over again, almost at least

[Bonzai 2]

With great expectations, i await impatiently for you to get back and show me the car when its all done

[RossD 43]

I was down at QEP the week before last picking up my engine. In reception was a big orange box with black marker on saying "Project Sarty". I take it this was yours?!

[felix2566 2]

Liking htis thread a lot Dr S!

 

Informative and clear as to what and why you have chosen to use parts. Good to see it all coming together nicely, will be really interesting to see it when it is done. Looking forward to it.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

A small update from Afghanistan. First off, I'm missing my baby. It's sad, but I think about my 205 almost every day, listing the jobs which are to be done and can be ticked off.

 

As someone commented recently when they visited QEP and Matt, Project Sarty is sitting in plastic boxes in QEP's 'reception', with the S16 block awaiting a rebore in a big orange box. The GTi6 baffled sump and windage tray parts are whistling their way down there as we speak; it's been confirmed by a very busy Rich (16v205) - thanks matey.

 

The DW8 diesel vernier pulley will find its way courtesy of Anthony who will collect from QEP when he's there the S16 pistons I no-longer need, but not the rods, which are no longer being shot-peened either as Matt said it's not necessary and would be a silly spending exercise. Bonus, sound advice.

 

The forged, mod'd pistons are still en-route and are the only outstanding engine items for QEP. Other items I'll build up at home will be a silicon hose set, mainly from unwanted parts from whoever (let me know if you have any I'll need please).

 

Back at home, the magical Anthony managed to get my 309GTi rear beam refurb done with 2 new stub axles and of course the new bushes done just in time to help me fit it one day before I left the UK. The car sat back on its wheels perfectly, with no rear right wheel camber any more (which I think was the cause of some dodgy feel and twitch-turn in on right handers ) such that we could roll her out of my garage and spin her round bonnet out, ready for some 2.2litre Mi/'6 power .

 

I also had my custom exhaust repaired and strenghtened before I went. The mid box was weak around the front pipe join and was blowing, but whilst I had that nicely (thickly) welded up, I also had two strengthening braces put on from the outer lip of the box to the pipe itself, which it already had at the back box end of the mid box. Made sense to me, as on the rallies in Cornwall the 'zorst gets the odd clout and this should help keep it alive. The triple part 4-2-1 manifold components had the two faces which mate with the head bolted to an RSJ flat and the 2-1 joint welded permanently instead of using the 2 clamps and paste. Made sense again to me.

 

I now need to find a replacement fuel filter to mount where the jack goes to help clear up some room by the cam cover and servo which has 'in-line' hose mounts to do away with the banjo bolts which I hear can leak. Mine never did, but it's one more potential problem removed. The jack will be relocated into the space saver wheel that's going into the spare basket instead of a full size alloy.

 

The purchases when I return include a new 4.3bar fuel pump (as suggested (by brand I mean) by Sandy309) to help the '6 injectors fuel sufficiently for the anticipated power. Then I need the coil/ignitor system, which I am still, with some strange fascination and obsession leaning towards the individual GM LS1/2 coil system which I've found new (from Monkfish) for around £160. I'm going to explore the possibility of using one from a GM/Vauxhall V6 car from a breakers, maybe a Monaro if there are some being broken yet? With my limited knowledge, despite having a coil & dedicated ignitor for each (NGK platinum) spark plug, this LS1/2 system will still be running a basic wasted spark set-up.

 

And finally the Megasquirt (probably V2 now, with the newest Extra update) to run off the standard (but now lightened and balanced with the diesel crank) Mi flywheel and Bosch trigger. The outstanding components are looking to stretch me to £550-600. Should still creep in under £1500-1600 for this complete 200+BHP, torquey mofo project.

 

PM me about hoses you have, (Miles I haven't forgotten - may still get the complete set from you) and post any ideas you have to help. Should be fun in the wet (or snow ) when I get home at Christmas.

 

Regards

 

Rich

[Super Josh 4]

which I think was the cause of some dodgy feel and twitch-turn in on right handers

 

You ain't joking their Matey As that Horse nearly found out

 

 

 

 

Josh

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

I now need to find a replacement fuel filter to mount where the jack goes to help clear up some room by the cam cover and servo which has 'in-line' hose mounts to do away with the banjo bolts which I hear can leak. Mine never did, but it's one more potential problem removed. The jack will be relocated into the space saver wheel that's going into the spare basket instead of a full size alloy.

 

 

MK2 astra gte 16v fuel filter, smaller than a gti item, jubilee ends and made to fold over 3 bar fuel pressure. Its what I use and have just coverted Chris to the same setup. Easier, lighter, safer

 

quick edit, we just ran some new fuiel lines under chris's today, genuine alloy ones from pug are longer than needed so we ran it all the way up the bulkhead then bent it over again to point towards the front end alongside the old fuel filter mounting place, then just put some new fuel lines straight to the filter mounted where you suggested by means of a simple L bracket and a jubilee clip. This done away with the standard nut down the bottom of the pipe set up and also reduced the risk of flex in the hose touching hot parts as we feared it would if you ran flexi from the current pipe ends.

Edited June 28, 2007 by Richie-Van-GTi

[Baz 421]

I've too just got a couple of filters, Corsa ones, sound about the same, a nice compact size and about coil diameter, so a nice coil bracket can be used to hold it in place on the inner wing where jack was. And again, usual fuel line & jubilee's.

[Super Josh 4]

And again, usual fuel line & jubilee's.

 

Hope you mean proper fuel line clamps

 

 

 

 

Josh

[Baz 421]

Oh of course, 'fuel line jubilee's' well, they're like jubilee's.

[Super Josh 4]

:)

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Hi yawl, just a mini update.

 

PeterT who was sourcing my pistons, has been severely messed around by Wiseco. This has had a knock on effect on me, as nearly 5 months after the order, Matt at QEP had no pistons for my engine! Pete's been very apologetic about the affair, and in effect the torch has been passed to Matt at QEP who I am now totally reliant upon. I'm sure he'll deliver.

 

I actually phoned Matt from here (glad I got through ) to confirm that Pete had told him, and I was assured I was in safe hands, so now I believe the custom pistons are coming from a firm called 'JE'. Anyone know about them?

 

Still a 5 week del'y time I'm told, but that is still time for the engine bore, the head work (triple cut seats etc), the custom head bolt x 1, the test assembly and the 'ready to go' build for collection around xmas. I'm not short of help either from the forum volunteering to help bang it in

 

I'm hoping that some good fellows such as Anthony and 16v205 have sent down to Matt the DW8 pulley and the XU10 baffled sump respectively.

 

On my return, the plan is to meet with Malachy and the Mad Prof about the MegaSquirt/Spark set-up I need to build, get the GM LS1 coil packs, source an airbox, move the battery to the back, bang in a Corsa in-line fuel filter on the o/s inner wheel arch (where the jack goes), add a space saver spare and turn the key.

 

Rich

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

Wiesco are a sister company of JE iirc .

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Wiesco are a sister company of JE iirc .

 

They're knobheads in my opinion dude! It's all in Matt's hands now.

 

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Sitrep - Now I'm back in the UK, I can commit some time to getting the 2.2Mi'6' Hybrid on the road.

 

Matt @ QEP now has (only just) received the pistons - I gather there's some worldwide delay on them - and having already bored out the supplied S16 block to 87mm and prep'd the head (triple-cut valves & ready to accept '6' inlet etc) is going to assemble the engine this week ready for collection mid January. He has the diesel crank and will hve to modify one off headbolt, but I know he knows what he's doing.

 

Points/factors I now need to consider are what oil to run, what temp I should aim at running the engine i.e. what thermostat & fan cut-in temp amongst others.

 

Matt will fit the DW8 (cheapskate vernier pulley from Anthony) and time up the engine after the test assembly with one of the forged pistons, ensuring no piston crown fouling against the newly cut valves. I think he'll utilise some BluTak in this delicate operation. 16v205's GTi6 baffled sump will also be fitted to cover up the sump spacer and oil pump with its extended pickup (thanks JamesR). Somebody else on the forum supplied the spacer; what a great forum .

 

The GM LS1 coil packs arrive tomorrow with my mate from the states at $220 USD i.e. £110. Monkfish motorsport in the UK wanted £220! Bonus . This ignition element now needs some consideration and advice (please) ref how I connect these to run wasted spark (even though they are 4 individual coil packs complete with ignitors) to the Megasquirt which I hope I will be building soon with Malachy & The Mad Professor. I'm sure it's quite simple, but - and as I haven't seen the coil packs yet - I don't know what connectors are insitu on the packs that I'm going to have to make a loom for which I gather splits/parallels into two ignition outputs from the MS box. Timing, or pairing of firing cylinders I need advice on too, for example when cyl 1 fires in order to ignite the mixture, which other cyl plug needs to be triggered as the wasted spark, or am I being a dumb ass here?

 

I know I can ditch my distributor, so there'll be two free ends of cams spinning on the engine now; one where the dizzy was and one where the power steering pulley used to be.

 

As for loom, I also need to consider making up (or I guess bastardizing) a new injector loom. I suppose I could break the back of it by using a GTi6 injector loom stripped down and extended if necessary. What I don't know about yet as I'm no MS expert (hence needing Malachy and Mad P's help) is how the injector loom connects to the Megasquirt box/ecu. I guess I'll learn in time.

 

I've also since read (from Sandy I believe) that the 106GTi fuel filter can be used in leiu of the Corsa item that I was going to fit where the jack was sited. This is preferable because it frees up space near the cam cover and in the crowded area there by the brake servo etc, and also because I don't want any Vauxhall chav components attached unless absolutely necessary.

 

Other tasks - Battery going to boot / angle grind out front chassis beam and replace with brace to free up radiator room and inlet clearance / buy & build MS ECU and associated loom (to connect to MAP sensor, thermo sensor (on stat) & in situ flywheel TDC trigger & also to get rev counter & fuel pump plumbed in). On the latter, the BX16v had a built in tachy relay. How do I cope with this with MS? Does MS have one built in (if I build it in I guess) or do I need to revert to an external tachy relay like a 1.6 or 1.9 205 GTi???

 

Questions, questions, and soooooooooooooooooooooooo much work to do. Great innit!

[petert 549]

Hi Rich,

glad to hear your back on track! Wiring the coil packs is very simple. You need just four wires going to the coils, assuming they'll be mounted on a strut brace. In the diagram below you'll notice there are two negatives, A and B. Wire these in parallel, and in parallel with the other coils. Also wire all the D's (+12V) in parallel.

 

So the four wires are:

 

Ground (#A and #B.)

+12V (#D)

Signal 1 from ECU - wire cyls. 1 and 4 in parallel (#C)

Signal 2 from ECU - wire cyls. 2 and 3 in parallel (#C)

Edited December 19, 2007 by petert

[James_R 3]

You can get the s16 end covers for the cams, you'll need two of them, or you can get some crf450 ally jobs to go in the ends to make the wiring safe

 

Got my pistons too finally. lets hope they didn't get mixed up

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

Why do you want to run wasted spark? Theres no benifit over coil over plug except less coils, 1 per 2 cyl, and a cheaper ECU?

Can you not wire up the coils to spark each cylinder when needed seeing as you have 4 coils? Or is it because the ECU cannot run coil over plug?

I assume you still retain an HT lead setup when locating the coils on a strutbrace?

 

 

Great project though, I want a 2.1L myself look foward to power figures

 

Henry.

Edited December 19, 2007 by Henry 1.9GTi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks for the extremely useful replies Pete & James and the interesting and well presented points from Henners.

 

Thought the packs'd be simple to do; Pete's reply proves it.

 

I've done initial homework re MS & understand it has/will have twin ignition outputs. I guess this means it COULD run coil over plug, IF you only had a 2CV or similar two cylinder engine. I learned that wasted spark was better (hence it being so common) but due to only twin ignition outputs on my my - once again cheapskate - ECU solution I can't run dedicated firing signals, so they'll have to fire in pairs which effectively probably means little to no gain over running a basic coil pack like everyone else.

 

OK I admit it: I just wanted to look cool with 4 coil packs and stubby (equal length ) fat, red HT leads running to my NGK iridium plugs from the packs mounted on the strut brace. There you go: I've come out so to speak.

 

The only technical advantage I can imagine, is less losses and equal sparking power through dedicated coils & shorter, equal length HT leads. Plus they must've been invented for a reason, so as Cartman would say....'why the f*ck not!'.

 

2187cc with forged pistons, a pretty damn high CR (over 12:1 I gather) with a 'loved' head, better breathing & fuelling (no AFM & bigger/higher FR injectors) and lurverly coil packs should produce with rolling road time and mapping an extremly well spread & TORQUEY motor. If I hit 200bhp I'll be very happy, but what I really want is accessible torque, and a peak torque figure not too high up the rev range, which is as near as damn it equals the BHP figure.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Why do you want to run wasted spark? Theres no benifit over coil over plug except less coils, 1 per 2 cyl, and a cheaper ECU?

Can you not wire up the coils to spark each cylinder when needed seeing as you have 4 coils? Or is it because the ECU cannot run coil over plug?

I assume you still retain an HT lead setup when locating the coils on a strutbrace?

Great project though, I want a 2.1L myself look foward to power figures

 

Henry.

 

I would guess he'll be running wasted spark because the Mi16 head doesn't have any camsensor as standard, hence he can't run coil on plug as it is. Could probably be fixed by using a S16 thermostat housing with camsensor etc., but as long wasted spark works well, why bother.