[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[welshpug 1,622]

yup!!!!!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks

 

I've emailed Godspeed and will call HiSpec back about a bell

[petert 550]

Think you have it all mate yeh

 

I think the rear ARBs are 23mm though and are PTS

 

Front ARB is standard 205 GTi

 

Solid mounted standard 205 rear beam

 

Haven't sorted the negative arms yet but I will and will request them at -2deg

 

The car drives and acts like a kart now and seeing as I used to kart (and win) from the age of 8 or 9 I think until about 15 it's suits me perfect but I knows it limits which means I can push it harder then people expect!!

 

I was chatting to some local guys that do a lot of French hillclimbs and ill be very interested in taking the 205 back to its roots one day where they say the French competitors will be all over the car because its French and modified, they said the best is St Goueno which is an hour out of St Malo and is a windy 3km run over 2 days!!

If you're still running a basically standard suspension setup as described, and the car is as low as I suspect from the photo on page #1462, then your roll centres will be way wrong. You need to either raise the car or modify the arms and steering. This is what I'd do to take on the 4WD scene.

 

increase front springs to 550lbs

turreted rear coil overs with same effective rate

no rear ARB

front 6mm (total) toe out

rear 2mm (total) toe out

-3 deg camber front and rear

min +6 caster

corner weight session

 

You'll find the corner weighting session will increase the ride height on the front anyway.

 

Good luck. You've done great so far but there's heaps more potential in the car.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks for the help Peter, much appreciated

 

I am planning on dropping the subframe and attempting to raise the mounting points for the wishbones so to raise the CG back up more in line with the Roll Centre, not sure if this is possible until i have a look

 

Just a couple of points/questions/concerns

 

- With the rear turreted setup do you still retain the Torsion Bars?? Without these still in place i'm concerned there would be controversy over the MSA regs (which as ever are very much open to interpretation quite frustratingly)(see below extracts)

 

- That's a lot of Toe out on the front, is that a setting you have used?? I could imagine that would give you more positive turn in but is there much straight line speed scrub?

 

- The -3 deg front camber, i assume thats Static camber and so upon cornering would reduce down to the advised -1.5 deg for Avons??

 

Another corner weight session is definitely on the cards once everything is done

 

Thanks

 

Simon

 

 

(MSA Extracts)

 

Suspension

12.8.1. Additions and modifications to springs, shock absorbers or suspension height are free.

12.8.2. The original type of suspension must be maintained (e.g. twin wishbone set-up cannot replace a single wishbone suspension; a sliding pillar cannot be replaced by a MacPherson strut; a trailing link cannot be replaced by wishbones or coaxial springing).

12.8.3. A live rear axle may not be replaced by an independent system or De Dion.

12.8.4. A live rear axle is allowed location links. If leverarm shock absorbers are an original fitment, they may be replaced by a single location link.

12.8.5. Suspension pick-up point positions may be altered, providing the suspension system is maintained as being the original type.

12.8.6. Road springs are free.

12.8.7. The wheelbase must be to the dimensions of the original vehicle, plus or minus 2% or 5cm whichever is the greater.

[petert 550]

Yes, torsion bars remain, but use low spec. bars so most of the work is done by the coil overs. The torsion bars are still needed to keep the arms together. Thus looks ok for 12.8.5.

 

Yes, I use 6mm toe out for windy tracks, 4mm for straighter tracks.

 

Yes, -3 static.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Many thanks

 

Ill have a look into turreting the rear end, being an Accountant means metal fabrications isn't my strongest point so ill have to seek advise on how to build these in, mainly with regards to the location and strength of the top mounting point of the strut, do you know of any guidelines out there for this as im sure its been done to a fair few 205s these days?

[petert 550]

There are no guidelines over than to find someone who has done it successfully. Colin Satchell is probably your man.

[welshpug 1,622]

re-front inner wishbone mountings, will be a lot simpler to lower the outer pivot than raise the inner, 406 hubs will do this, though the brake setup will need changing as the offset and radius of the caliper lugs is different, Satchell Engineering use these on 205's and can do the subframe wishbones and hubs as a package.

turrets, location of them is pretty simple really, directly above the stub pin !

Edited April 7, 2015 by welshpug

[petert 550]

Location is the easy part, but getting the shock length, installed spring height and droop correct is what you pay the money for.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

The outer pivot is already lowered by about 2" with an extension piece so is really at its limits, i will take a look at the inner mountings and see what i can do, even if i can raise them 10 - 20mm that would be better than nothing at all.

 

Really need to try and find the roll centre but how on earth do you do that on a saloon car as it seems almost impossible to find the angles?

 

My concern with the strut mounting in the turret would be its strength as the boot pan and inner wheel wells which the turret would be build on seem rather flimsy.

 

Also i could imagine some really busy bodies could argue that part of the turret is within the front and rear wheel centre lines and so against regs

 

 

Please dont take any of this as criticism of what you are advising by the way as they are all great proven ideas, i just want to be sure of what i'm doing and the only way to learn is by asking questions and challenging ideas

[welshpug 1,622]

thats where you either trial and error for years or pay someone like Colin

[petert 550]

T

 

Really need to try and find the roll centre but how on earth do you do that on a saloon car as it seems almost impossible to find the angles?

 

Start measuring.

 

http://www.racingaspirations.com/apps/macpherson-geometry-calculator

 

http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArticles/ID/2804/The-Ultimate-Guide-to-Suspension-and-Handling-Its-All-in-the-Geometry-Part-One-The-Roll-Center.aspx

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

thats where you either trial and error for years or pay someone like Colin

 

Yeh i spoke to Colin about his setup and looks and sounds top notch and i'm sure well worth the money (iirc about £2k) with the level of development that's gone in, just with all the other stuff i have going on this will have to wait

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Godspeed came back and have quoted £325 (inc VAT) for the 2 piece disc and bell setup in the exact dimensions of a 247mm 1.6GTi Bendix Disc which is exactly what i need.

 

This means i can go for the Hi-Spec calipers and get them to provide me with standard peugeot brackets to fit them

 

Can i just confirm that the fitment of the calipers is the same for 205 and 309 hubs?

[Anthony 1,000]

Caliper fitment is the same most smaller PSA cars throughout the 80's and 90's including 205 and 309, hence you can for example unbolt a 1.6 GTi Bendix caliper and bolt on a 1.9 GTi Girling caliper without changing the disks.

 

What's different on 1.6 GTi's specifically is the disk offset owing to the hubs, but the caliper fitment is the same as other 205/309's etc.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Thanks Anthony, so as long as i get the brackets for the calipers made to 1.6GTi Bendix spec (specifically caliper offset) i will be ok

 

Not the best situation having one company making discs and another making brackets and supplying calipers but at least the discs will be the standard Bendix spec

 

Ill get hold of HiSpec and see what they say

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Finally got a response from HiSpec and although they can make bespoke caliper brackets they can not make them for a disc smaller than 283mm for a 205 because (in their words)

 

the lugs on the upright will interfere with the caliper.

 

Back to the drawing board!!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

On to Wilwood now, they supply the Midilite caliper which is a Radial fit but only do brackets for a 283 and 310mm disc for the 205.

 

Have asked if the 283 bracket could be bought and shortened to suit a 247mm disc, however they do not seem to want to be very helpful at the moment (dont understand why companies cant be bothered to put in a little effort to make a sale)

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

In my opinion you would be better finding a company willing to make you a kit to suit, and then send them a hub and a wheel to work from.

 

Try BG Developments.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

That would be ideal and also expect rather expensive

 

One of the reasons i was trying to stick with a standard sized disc was in hope that a company had produced a mounting bracket already to suit one of the calipers, but it appears that most companies seem to only offer big brake conversions for their calipers leaving me with this issue

[Tom Fenton 1,525]

Surely half the point of doing it is to save unsprung weight? So you are much better off with a disc and separate ally bell as it will be lighter than a standard disc.

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

I thought this picture may help to show you what hi-spec have pointed out. These are some brackets I made for hi-spec r114s on 266 discs, you can see how close the lugs are to the caliper face! You'd need nearly 10mm off the caliper face to get 247s on. You may be able to take some material off the hubs and make custom brackets though?

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/uploads/monthly_05_2010/post-7633-1273581437.jpg

 

The r114s I have are designed to fit a 280mm disc under 13" wheels! Have you considered trying a 260 rotor with the standard discs offset?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Surely half the point of doing it is to save unsprung weight? So you are much better off with a disc and separate ally bell as it will be lighter than a standard disc.

Sorry Tom when I said standard sized disc I did mean a 2 piece disc just in the standard 247mm 1.6gti dimensions, Godspeed have confirmed they can make this size bell/rotor for me

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I thought this picture may help to show you what hi-spec have pointed out. These are some brackets I made for hi-spec r114s on 266 discs, you can see how close the lugs are to the caliper face! You'd need nearly 10mm off the caliper face to get 247s on. You may be able to take some material off the hubs and make custom brackets though?

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/uploads/monthly_05_2010/post-7633-1273581437.jpg

 

The r114s I have are designed to fit a 280mm disc under 13" wheels! Have you considered trying a 260 rotor with the standard discs offset?

If I cannot find or it is not possible to fit any calipers to a 247mm disc I will have no choice but to increase the rotor size as you say Allan, however as Tom said my main aim is to save weight so this is a very last resort!!

 

Would the brackets you have made accommodate a 260mm disc do you think? With some slight alterations obviously

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

Yep mine would take 260s with a skim across the face. As I say I think you could go 247s with a high offset disc and a bit of relief ground on the hub lugs. A 260 rotor won't be much heavier at all in reality if you get one with the very minimum depth required for the pad, even if that means buying a slightly bigger rotor and turning down the OD.