[race_prep] Guernsey Hillclimb 205 Build

[Kane 34]

Wardy, have you managed to have any luck with the MSA regarding the passage of the cage through the bulkhead?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Wardy, have you managed to have any luck with the MSA regarding the passage of the cage through the bulkhead?

Yes they did and unfortunately wasn't the news I was hoping for:

 

Dear Simon,

 

My understanding is that S12.4.3 would prevent you from extending chassis strengthening tubes from the ROPS through the bulkhead.

 

Fuel tank fillers are not permitted in the driver/passenger compartment, this is general safety regulation detailed in K6 in the MSA yearbook, it will therefore need to be boxed in or re-routed to be external.

 

I am afraid I cant comment on the regulations in France as we have no jurisdiction outside of the UK.

 

Best Regards

Michael

[Kane 34]

Ah that's a little unfortunate. Cam and Pats build that Peter linked previously looks like a decent alternative solution. Will you be adopting something similar with extra tubes connecting the strut tops to the front hoop legs via a bolted interface at the firewall?

 

Certainly some other interesting ideas the guys over in Oz have done that i may be pinching for my own build.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I really need to have a decent look at what I can do as currently I think I'm not going to be able to do anything because I cannot do as per Peter's link crossing over to the bulk head as my oil tank is very much in the way.

 

I would need to go straight back from the strut top to the cage but then if you look at the car there is actually 2 walls you need to cut through, the first as shown on the left hand side of Peters pic shown below (sorry I stole it) and the second being the actual bulkhead

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/6869EE4D-0E26-4396-8FB4-9DEE02CCE6A3_zpshtwd0g5y.jpeg

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

This may show what I mean a little more (more stolen pics):

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/F36158DB-E985-487C-BA74-8B420FF28431_zpskpsvlm8c.jpeg

 

However this is a neat idea:

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/05E52EFB-FA8B-43BA-A753-F8B897C3D0D6_zps8y7xx5gw.jpg

[welshpug 1,622]

thats bizarre as there are plenty of cages that tie in to the strut tops

[Kane 34]

I wonder if the first section of steel between the engine bay and area where the wiper motor etc. sits would be included in that rule. May be worth another email to the MSA but as it is not entering into the cabin you might find that it wouldn't be a issue.

 

Edit: The solution that Ash uses on his Rallye would be ideal looking at the last photo you posted if you are not permitted to make any holes whatsoever. Plate up to the first section steel then tubing back to the bulkhead where you could bolt/weld your cage in from the other side.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Kane

[welshpug 1,622]

http://www.safetydevices.com/thumb.php?src=i/rollcages/812.jpg

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

http://www.safetydevices.com/thumb.php?src=i/rollcages/812.jpg

Can't make out the pic mate?!?!

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

I wonder if the first section of steel between the engine bay and area where the wiper motor etc. sits would be included in that rule. May be worth another email to the MSA but as it is not entering into the cabin you might find that it wouldn't be a issue.

 

Edit: The solution that Ash uses on his Rallye would be ideal looking at the last photo you posted if you are not permitted to make any holes whatsoever. Plate up to the first section steel then tubing back to the bulkhead where you could bolt/weld your cage in from the other side.

It takes them weeks to reply so I'll have to ask them Monday but it's "a whole in the body" so would have thought both sections are prohibited and then like you said my only decent option is to box in from strut top to first wall then roll bar to the next (in wiper area) then bolt through bulkhead

 

What's stopping you just welding the cage from strut top to first wall and also first wall to bulkhead (within wiper area) then bolting just the cage to inner bulkhead wall, much less material to be used but need to prove you have welded either side and not just drilled a hole for the cage to go through and then welded around it to hide what you've done, I suppose slightly offsetting the bars would prove that

[Kane 34]

I don't see tube being any more difficult to install than plate so if it would save some weight then may be worth while. I'd be inclined to cap the ends of the tubing with say a rectangular 3mm thick sheet of steel both sides of the section between the bulkhead and wiper area. Should give a good view for the scrutes to show that the two tubes are separate and it would avoid any flex in that area, especially if you were to offset the tubing.

 

Probably a little OTT but no point in chucking in extra steel and the subsequent weight if its going to flap about under heavy load.

 

On a side note how do people get away with cookie cuttering shells if you aren't permitted to make any additional holes? I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is fine outwith of the axles but can't find anything in the blue book now.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Section (S) Sprints, Hillclimbs & Drag Racing reads as follows:

 

Chassis

12.4. The chassis or unitary construction must remain to the manufacturers original specification in construction and material within the wheel hub centres with the exception of the following.

12.4.1. Re-positioning of suspension pick-up points and engine mountings are permitted.

12.4.2. Inner wheel arches only may be modified to allow the attachment of damper mountings.

12.4.3. It is only permitted to make holes for the passage of cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulic, instrument or fire extinguisher lines as per Vehicle Regulations. All redundant holes must be covered with metal plates.

12.4.4. Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed.

12.4.5. Bulkheads and/or inner wings may be modified to permit the clearance of the induction system. This shall be understood to include air induction ducting, manifolding, trumpets/ram pipes for engine carburation or fuel injection system only. A maximum clearance dimension of 7.75cm will be allowed for any protrusion, but only in the engine compartment.

 

 

So 12.4 is the overriding rule of no modification in between the wheels centres and then 12.4.1 to 12.4.5 shows exceptions of what IS allowed in between the wheels centres, so anything is allowed outside of the wheels centres

 

Hence a sheet of paper having more strength that my rear end now and also my plans to remove the chassis legs forwards of the engine mounts

[welshpug 1,622]

zoom in on the picture i posted, its a safety devices cage.

[welshpug 1,622]

which is msa approved btw

[Kane 34]

Possibly permitted because of the MSA/FIA homologation attached to that particular cage. If that is the case it does seem a bit ridiculous that one car with the SD cage is perfectly legal but another car with an identical arrangement but 'custom' built cage would fall foul of the rules.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

The pic goes pixelated when you zoom in however I have found the cages you are referring to on their site and I've stolen their pics, see here:

 

http://s868.photobucket.com/user/Wardy18/library/2016%20Upgrades/C042%20Roll%20Cage

 

However, it may be MSA Homologated but it still doesn't meet the Technical Regs for Hillclimbing as shown above as its cut through that first wall and also the triangulated bar from the roll cage foot up to the bar cuts through the bulkhead as you will see in the pics, a very strange design as they have gone to the effort to plate and bolt either side of the bulkhead for the top bar yet just cut through for the triangulated bar?!?!

 

This cage is probably suitable for Rallying etc where they poss don't have these rules but I doubt for Hillclimbing, I will send these pics in an email to the MSA tech guy and wait a month to see what he comes back with!!

 

Hopefully he says I can do pretty much exactly as Safety Devices cage shows with the top bar from strut top cutting through the first wall and plating to the bulkhead, my main hoop is positioned much further back than theirs so my triangulated bar can stay within the bulkhead hopefully

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Possibly permitted because of the MSA/FIA homologation attached to that particular cage. If that is the case it does seem a bit ridiculous that one car with the SD cage is perfectly legal but another car with an identical arrangement but 'custom' built cage would fall foul of the rules.

I'm pretty sure the Homologation is an allowance for the tube material/spec and not the fitting design, so with it being Homologated means that they can use a smaller diameter/thickness tube than the MSAs min spec requirements but have got it tested and certified by the MSA and so is legal.

 

The design requires cutting through sections of the chassis which is disallowed for Hillclimbs

[And 15 1 Cars]

For rallying it is allowed no mention on altering the bulk head for it as far as I can see, we both share the general section and safety parts of the blue book witch has no mention of it but note pic 11 in safety part that shows front pick up points on the suspention and only real thing it states in there is the cage can't come forward of the front suspension and rear can't behind it, then in the rally part no mention of the cage passing through the bulkhead just local alteration for engine/box and controls, so I quess your issue is in the hill climb part witch I guess is were some are getting confused here..

I haven't read that part I know there is some confusion on door bars in rallying at the mo started by some one who hasn't read the BB correctly or there interpretation is different..

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Yep exactly, it's the hillclimb regs that are causing the problem im afraid, those SD cages are perfect for rallying but still require illegal cutting for hillclimb purposes because of S12.4.3 which is a hillclimb specific reg

 

Let's get clarification from the MSA and go from there, in mean time I have PLENTY to be crackin on with (not so easy with a newborn at home)

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Latest pics of the new dash, it looks a bit like a brainwash headset from the 80s but lets wait and see the outcome

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/1CC979C6-F476-4FC5-8086-1FF53936620E_zpssucor4bc.jpg

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/C5C5B56E-F708-4123-B2EA-9FC85D2C06AD_zps1bzk6k3p.jpg

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Question for the sparkys out there, I want to make sure I am using the right size amp fuse

 

I have a power bar which is fed directly from the ignition switch which is fed directly from the battery isolator switch, this power bar feeds power to all of the cars electrics via a fuse box ranging from 5 to 15 amp depending on what's it's going to

 

Currently I have a 40amp fuse in between the battery isolator and the ignition switch, it has never blown but on the other hand I want to make sure this isn't a too high amp fuse

 

So the layout is

 

Batt - Batt isolator - 40 amp fuse - ignition switch - power bar - fuse panel - to end unit

 

Is that 40amp fuse too high?!

 

Thanks

[dcc 855]

what will be max draw?

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Huh?

 

(Sorry I can wire something but not good at ratings of what I'm wiring)

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

Regardinnd Roll Cage discussions earlier, i received a reply from the MSA regarding the picture linked to here, in summary by no means can you cut any part of the chassis within the wheel centres for roll cages

 

Dear Simon,

 

Apologies for the delay in replying.

 

Regulation S12.4 states that the chassis or unitary construction must remain to the original manufacturers specification within the wheel hub centres, by cutting this panel you would be modifying the unitary construction therefore it would not be permitted.

 

Best Regards

Michael

 

 

Link to pic in question:

 

http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab247/Wardy18/2016%20Upgrades/C042%20Roll%20Cage/14DDCEAD-9E33-4AD2-87FE-CFDC1D9561CB_zpsreuf16p5.png

[petert 550]

Why are there six switches?