[project] Sarty Evo II - Phase 2 Of Project Sarty

[Sandy 189]

Recycling may help to placate the environmentalists.

[Batfink 201]

Thanks.

 

It was always a St Tropez Kev. Rightly or wrongly I've always had a soft spot for them, as Ben said on Kate's and on the 205 in the banner on here. It also let's in s*it loads of cold air down low (where my rad is) and for the brakes where I see no point in having driving lights that do naff all.

 

Plus as Justin said: something had to remain ghastly.

 

Reference my suspension: I had a chat with Sandy, and basically the position is this.

 

Based coincidentally on recent in-depth suspension topics on here (thanks Kyepan, Cameron, Rippthrough etc), it would appear that the solution is looking at the car as a whole.

 

Isolated views of the front, the front ARB, the rear, rear dampers etc means me answering Kev's question about my rear spring rate is ultimately meaningless, as they are part of a package/solution created by Colin taking into account my modified chassis, wheels, brakes, engine and MY GOAL of a fast road car suitable for track.

 

My faith and money spent on Colin, capitalises on his extensive trials and testing in competition over the years. I cannot expect to learn (or buy) his experience and be able to quote it. He's just done what he is confident is right. It is unique.

 

 

The valence is not that bad really. Worked on kates certainly.

As for the suspension. The best setup for one person is anothers worst. We can query the theory but its going out and driving it that will tell the real story. It is so customisable with spring rates and whatnot that you will be able to fine tune it to how you drive. Consider this a good starting point I'm still interested in the spring rate. If you want to pm me thats fine but I'd like to compare to how mine is in its current guise as i'm curious to whether colin sets up the rear differently to mark shillaber.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Batfink

[Sandy 189]

Mark went and had a look at Colin's design and copied it as best he could, it was as simple as that I'm afraid. Colin's design is part of an overall package and the detail of spring rates and so on are all relevant to the whole, but irrelevant if taken in isolation.

[Batfink 201]

I'll just ask Colin then if its a forum secret

Edited May 29, 2010 by Batfink

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I think you're missing the point Kev; it's not a 'forum secret'.

 

My suspension is designed for my car. My car has a specific purpose/goal. It also has a specific plate diff, no cage, no rear interior and an iron block. My suspension is chosen and set up to work with those things, combined with the Xsara PAS rack and Colin's custom work to my shell and subframe.

 

It is not as if you are missing a trick and a simple figure that will revolutionise your suspension/car.

 

There are elements of Colin and Sandy's design work which is based on priceless experience from trial, test and error, and therefore not everything will be explained.

 

However what I can say is that in recent suspension geometry topics, the issue of 'compliance' has come up.

 

Yes: I understand and appreciate that in F1 and karting etc, a functional rigidness and 'anti-roll' approach is not only the norm but is needed.

 

However as Sandy has outlined to me, the majority of us don't drive at this level; nor do we drive on perfect tracks, and track and road surfaces. As a result, a degree of compliance is beneficial.

 

To put it in simple and relative terms, Sandy advised me to 'look at a Lotus'. When he said that he made me think, as when I've seen Exiges etc on track (the forecourt version I mean), they 'roll' a lot more than I thought they might. It is only now that the penny is dropping for me.

 

I suppose what I'm saying is that as Kyepan has hinted, typical approaches to fast road/semi-track suspension set-ups are perhaps not necessarily 'correct', i.e. ever stiffening things up in an almost endless fashion.

 

I believe Colin and Sandy's approach is a blend of moderation, trying everything and changing direction, and settling on something which works in the real world, however bonkers and contrary to common belief it may seem.

 

...

 

Xsara fuse and relay box fitted today, along with battery and ECU. The car has power.

Edited May 29, 2010 by DrSarty

[Batfink 201]

I have a similar setup which was very good on the road and I was interested in comparing and sharing details about the two cars I'll just enjoy the pictures and chat with Colin for the reasoning behind it all as maybe this was not the right place.

[kyepan 291]

It also let's in s*it loads of cold air down low (where my rad is) and for the brakes where I see no point in having driving lights that do naff all.

i was just logging on to ask you exactly that question.. struck me that there must be a reason for it...

 

i had guessed that you wanted the car to stand out in some way..as visually it's fairly subtle, but cooling is even better.

 

nice one.

[Garry 1]

That's the reason I sourced and fiited the St Tropez valence. The front scoop would 'ram' a load of air into the rad and the spot light holes are used to cool my two oil coolers. Plus I think it looks OK.

 

Looks really good rich (the whole project).

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks.

 

Today is loom building day. Quite theraputic, and, because I'm building a few cars at the moment, I'm able to make 2 looms at once.

 

The DIYAutotune Megasquirt wiring bundles are a God send I tell you. With each wire printed on at regular intervals and colour-coded, the whole process is actually quite easy, providing you've planned in advance.

 

I test painstakingly each connection for continuity if I add a plug or T 2 wires together. For example the 4 coils have 16 pins in total, which reduce down to only 5. I'm trying to avoid any start-up gremlins based on poor connectivity.

 

I may be able to fire the car up tomorrow, but I can't drive it until Sandy does the remap, as the currect 2.2 map was for 4 x GTI6 264cc injectors and it's now set to use 8 x ~220cc injectors which means it would be running too lean. It really needs to be on the rollers with Sandy and a lambda sensor to really get the feel for what's going on and remap accordingly.

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

It's looking Great Rich and it sounds like its coming on nicely, Good luck with the wiring

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I believe the logic is to approach anti-roll another way, and let the springs do the work, controlled by the dampers and that's all.

 

As I said: I don't really understand it, although Sandy did outline it in a ninja style to Welshpug and I am confident it will work. We will see eh?

 

Agreed, this is how my car can potentially go on the front - these modern-day (ie. very clever) 3-way adjustables can be tailored with custom valving and adjustable slow/fast bump so that you get a degree of anti-roll (stiffness) in the initial turn-in by fettling the low-speed settings and, if you get it right, "my guy" believes you could probably dial out the front ARB altogether and get some lovely compliance and plenty of travel. If you're doing road rallying or stage rallies over closed roads like Epynt/Jim Clark/Otterburn and so forth, this is probably more akin to road driving (what your focus is, Dr.S) that most track or smooth tarmac based work. I'd sacrifice a little ultimate grip on these places for a car that's stable when being launched off yumps all day long, or pattering over uneven roads at speed.

 

So yes, I've been given the same advice, it seems consistent not that I doubted Sandy, Miles or yourself anyway, just giving some backing to the claims!

 

edit : Oh, and P.S, looking good

Edited May 31, 2010 by brumster

[Baz 421]

Coming along nicely i see!

 

Mine doesn't run a front ARB, this isn't unusual, but the rear is, unless on mega dampers, what are they Rich? Just Gaz's irrc without trawling back through the thread? And am i right in thinking it's converted to monotube/coilover style damper units at the rear?

 

How about we share the knowledge and wisdom Sandy? I've seen posts in the past whinging about a certain someone for not sharing ''secrets'' and ''dark art'' if that's what you want to call it!

 

 

And just for the record, my opinion of the valance is that it makes a negligible difference, the standard one isn't bad anyway once you remove the grille backing, and if you've dropped the rad modify it slightly to stop it from 'ducting' the air upwards. Why do you need this to run cooler anyway, was it not ok on the red one? I can understand in Garry's case with a couple of extra coolers etc and limited space to put things.

 

At least with a standard one you wouldn't have to look at a fugly front end, you might as well stick those poxy TSW's back on it too...

 

And call me picky, is it just me or are the Aerocatches fitted oddly? Not that it ultimately detracts from the overall sexy white look!

Edited June 1, 2010 by Baz

[Sandy 189]

The thing is, the knowledge in this case isn't mine to share necessarily, it's principally Colin's. I have progressively given alot away on this forum over time (remember when I made everyone aware of the ZX rear arms toe?) There are a number of crucial details that add up to making it work and Colin's spent a huge amount of time refining them. As much as we like to help people out, some aspects are commercially sensitive and would simply be handing over the hard earned data to competitors that haven't invested as much in the development on a public forum. What we go to great pains to do instead is point people in the right direction where we can and help them to spend (how we believe to be) wisely to get value for money and not waste money on blind alleys that have limited potential.

Colin's rear turret/axle arrangement is a good case in point. He doesn't charge much more for the whole job than the combined cost of decent dampers/bars/ARB, he's tooled up for it, all the parts are pre-made and it would be very hard to replicate the set up as a one of for much less than his price. He's not robbing anyone, it's a great set up for a very reasonable price. Have a look at What Hockley want for something similar!!!

 

I reiterate my earlier point that it's the bigger picture that makes it work, the collective effect of the entire chassis revisions and looking at details singly is irrelevant.

[gtmotorsport 0]

Totally agree with Sandy, Colin's setup is a well thought out and well developed solution.

 

I purchased a Gold shell from Colin and have had the rear turrets fitted and seat rails. Yes it cost money (good value), but Colin is very reasonable on price and a first class engineer. I have worked with a number of contract engineering firms and they could do with some of Colin's spirit. If Colin sets about doing a job it is done right regardless of the time he has to put into it. Case in point the seat rails on my car with the wide boy seat (I am a bigger chap!) meant the centre tunnel had to be worked on, something I was aware of before he started. Colin did the job really quick (this guy doesn't know when to stop), then charged me peanuts really for doing it, a lot less than the time that went into it (Colin's hourly rate is cheap). Then to top it all off let me borrow his trailer to get the shell back.

 

I have nothing but praise for both Colin and Sandy, great advise, great knowledge, and great friends to have. I don't blame either of them for not wanting to have there designs and knowledge half-hitched and poorly replicated and god for bid passed of as there work.

 

Rant over - give the guys a break.

Sorry Sarty, just had to have my say

Edited June 1, 2010 by gtmotorsport

[kyepan 291]

There are a number of crucial details that add up to making it work and Colin's spent a huge amount of time refining them. As much as we like to help people out, some aspects are commercially sensitive and would simply be handing over the hard earned data to competitors that haven't invested as much in the development on a public forum.

 

I think you've every right to withold the intellectual property that makes you money... espcecially considering the solution was invented by yourselves and developed to a good level also by yourselves.

 

If other people want to understand it, they should learn the engineering and practical skills to enable them to make their own assumptions, or spend their money and recieve the goods.

 

cheers

 

J

[Baz 421]

Indeed i understand the theory behind it, and of course why you wouldn't want to give it up completely, but a simple theory in simple terms would surely not hurt. People aren't going to spend their money when they don't know what they're buying, even if they're shown from competitive success or what have you that it works.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Baz

[Veero 1]

Looking good Rich, out of curiosity what was the oil filler neck/tower assembly from?

[welshpug 1,622]

S16

[johnrobertgordon 0]

Looks good Rich, Cant wait to see the finished thing.

[marksorrento205 80]

Whats the latest Rich

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Whats the latest Rich

 

She runs.

 

Fired up first time on the new loom (miraculously), bursting into life and sounding like she used to.

 

The final installation stages of my loom and relay box took forever, getting it all right and OE looking. It's tidy and I'm proud.

 

The fuel and PAS pumps prime for a few secs on the ignition, as I linked them together to the ECU. This was also done via the inertia switch (that most PSA cars have) so in the event of a bang both pumps will cut-out.

 

Sandy plugged in for a few minutes to tell the ECU about the different injectors, but it certainly needs a remap and should be done in a mega session (including MoT) within the next 10 days.

 

Trims are on and interior is in. It looks like a proper car again and sounds.......healthy!

Edited June 6, 2010 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,622]

nice one

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Pics of stuff tomorrow.

 

Re: Aerocatches (Baz) - that's how the instructions say to fit them, i.e. narrow end forwards, either straight or angled in slightly. They are a horrible, murderous job to fit, but do and look the job better than the typical metal pin variety. Lockable too.

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

Well done Rich, looking forward to the pictures

[GLPoomobile 958]

Fired up first time on the new loom (miraculously)

 

Miraculously? Sounds like you were lacking in faith. God knows why, as it sounds like you spent a hell of a lot more time over your loom (which was partially pre-built anyway) than I did with mine! I never checked any of my connections as I went, just had faith in it, chucked it in the car and it worked from the off We won't mention the later +VE issues I had though

 

Are you expecting it to be a little more socially respectable on the 8 injectors and remap, or do you think it'll still be setting car alarms off at idle?