Mi16 Myths - Let's Get This Sorted!

[Sandy 189]

To be fair, alot of the TB'd cars i've tried haven't really been very well set up. There's a chasm between good mapping and excellent mapping as to how the car feels to drive.

 

I did haynes track yesterday in my 1.1 309 and had a scream drfiting it all day, but i'd have much rather been doing it with the scalpel throttle response and glorious noise of the TB'd 1.8 in my Goodwood. It's history now though!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Sandy, my old man does quite a bit of organising for the Camel Vale Motor Club down your way. Mostly sprints, hill climbs, auto tests and point to point rallies, often meeting in the Jamaica Inn near Bodmin. I'm doing a P2P with him in my Mi16 on 20Oct. If you're only a track dude then fair enough, but if you fancy a bash find a nav and get in touch.

 

Any bits off your Goodwood for sale yet??

 

Dr S

[Batfink 201]

engines going to another home already lol

[Sandy 189]

Sandy, my old man does quite a bit of organising for the Camel Vale Motor Club down your way. Mostly sprints, hill climbs, auto tests and point to point rallies, often meeting in the Jamaica Inn near Bodmin. I'm doing a P2P with him in my Mi16 on 20Oct. If you're only a track dude then fair enough, but if you fancy a bash find a nav and get in touch.

 

Any bits off your Goodwood for sale yet??

 

Dr S

Cool! I'm mostly a supporter/follower of speed events down here, don't miss many and work on several of the entrants, but don't really fancy getting involved myself, I can't really support the cost! Colin was saying to me that it's fine until you've won, then you realise it's only your car that's holding you back and the cashflow is low viscosity from there! I will do it one day, but only when I have the "spare" money.

 

The Goody bits are largely spoken for, the back axle might have to go though. I'll put a for sale up.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Sandy & Batfink (obviously gagging for the 309 engine )

 

I'll go on a track for fun with mine one day but I've always preferred rallying (dunno why). Rear beam/axle would've been nice but got one from Boombang and practically delivered to my door - bonus .

 

Swapping beams over next few days so weekend should see totally roadworthy motor - can't wait.

 

Regards

 

Dr S

[Sandy 189]

Goodo Sarty. I'd give the 1.8 16v some thought, with a few choice improvements it's a really stonking engine, with a keen edge feel to it that belies the modest power. If I was to do another XU, 8v or 16v, it'd be the 1.8 no question. No oil surge either

[veloce200 3]

Cool! I'm mostly a supporter/follower of speed events down here, don't miss many and work on several of the entrants, but don't really fancy getting involved myself, I can't really support the cost! Colin was saying to me that it's fine until you've won, then you realise it's only your car that's holding you back and the cashflow is low viscosity from there! I will do it one day, but only when I have the "spare" money.

 

 

I set up my business two years ago to do more track time. 2005 - on track 3 times - 2006 - not even been on a circuit once !! I know what you mean! I just wish they hadn't got rid of standard production class - it was brilliant !

[Jonmurgie 2]

Interesting thread... oh Maxi you do make me LAUGH... you really do

 

DrSarty you may like to read these couple of threads about my Mi experience so far (not including the current engine/build):

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=45599

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=56154

 

Make of that what you will, but that 30bhp didn't come cheap at ~£1100 for the Jenvey's and ~£2500 for the MoTeC

[veloce200 3]

Interesting thread... oh Maxi you do make me LAUGH... you really do

 

DrSarty you may like to read these couple of threads about my Mi experience so far (not including the current engine/build):

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=45599

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=56154

 

Make of that what you will, but that 30bhp didn't come cheap at ~£1100 for the Jenvey's and ~£2500 for the MoTeC

 

 

you serious £2500 for an ECU?

[Jonmurgie 2]

fitted and mapped... there abouts

[veloce200 3]

fitted and mapped... there abouts

kin hell man what kind of features does it have? bluetooth? DVD player? flamer?

[Dino 3]

Unless you have been in a car that has proper management you really cant appreciate how much better the car runs with it.

 

Im not talking about DIY Megasquirt or quirky Emerald either.

[Sandy 189]

I agree that the ECU's differ, but the difference between good and excellent is mostly mapping in my experience. A friend of mine that has produced some of the most serious NA Vauxhall engines out there, has run just about every ECU available (including the top spec Motec's) and habitually uses on of the less celebrated makes, primarily due to the ease of setting up and simplicity of diagnosis. Even his most powerful engines are remarkably smooth and flexible on it.

 

Brand brand brand, that's all people talk about!

[TEKNOPUG 3]

Which one? I can't see how there can be much diffirence between them other than the software?

[johnrobertgordon 0]

Unless you have been in a car that has proper management you really cant appreciate how much better the car runs with it.

 

Im not talking about DIY Megasquirt or quirky Emerald either.

 

Whats wrong with the Emerald?

[Sandy 189]

You would think this 205 would be poor from the way alot of people talk on here, given that it has Emerald ECU, standard valves, Mi head, wet sump, etc. but 229bhp@7000rpm (Emerald rollers), a raft of hill records and FTD's in the wet a couple times (including single seaters) and no oil surge; would suggest otherwise.

[veloce200 3]

Unless you have been in a car that has proper management you really cant appreciate how much better the car runs with it.

 

Im not talking about DIY Megasquirt or quirky Emerald either.

 

 

quirky Emerald? Last time I checked engines weren't that fussy about fuel and spark as long as it came in the right amount and at the right time. If you genuinely believe there are true performance gains to be had by different brands of ECU then you are sorely misguided IMO. As Sandy says it's all about brands.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Interesting thread... oh Maxi you do make me LAUGH... you really do

 

DrSarty you may like to read these couple of threads about my Mi experience so far (not including the current engine/build):

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=45599

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=56154

 

Make of that what you will, but that 30bhp didn't come cheap at ~£1100 for the Jenvey's and ~£2500 for the MoTeC

 

 

Makes me laugh everytime I read your posts too.... especially that trackcar

 

2.5 grand is nothing to a cheque book tuner veloce. The internet mechanics can get 200BHP out of an mi easily, makes real life mechanics look silly.

 

Some of us are still in touch reality......

 

Maxi

[veloce200 3]

Some of us are still in touch reality......

 

Maxi

 

thankfully!

[DaveW 6]

So come on Maxi how much have you spent on yours then?

[bales 1]

Makes me laugh everytime I read your posts too.... especially that trackcar

 

2.5 grand is nothing to a cheque book tuner veloce. The internet mechanics can get 200BHP out of an mi easily, makes real life mechanics look silly.

 

Some of us are still in touch reality......

 

Maxi

 

Why would you take the piss out of his trackcar that to me looks like a very very nice piece of kit? why does the amount of money he has spent on it effect you in any way, its his money and his choice.

 

I am sorry to say this but it just smacks of jealousy to have a go at someone because they have spent more on their car than maybe you or other people would - hence your sig.

 

In the scheme of things even if he has spent 10k on his car that is nothing compared to some people, how much do you think a Radical or a Brooke or an Ariel Atom or a Caterham costs for a proper trackday car? some people spend £30k+ on a car purely for trackdays, does that mean that it is a huge waste of money?

 

I really think that bringing the amount of money someone spends on something is completely irrelevant,

 

One more point is that you say "cheque book tuners" i do not know how much mechanical knowledge Jon Murgie actually has or to what degree he has done the work to his car, but again I think this is completely irrelevant.

 

If someone is not particularly practically minded or doesnt want to get involved in that sense of building a car. If that person sends their car to a company to do all the work to the car carry out all the modifications, does that mean that the persons car isn't as "worthy" as someone who has done all the work themselves and built it completely themselves?

 

Sorry but that post comes across as totally immature and of jealousy, and I do think that your points come across as derogatory to people who maybe dont have the mechanical knowledge about cars or who arent interested in messing with their cars in that way.

 

Alex

 

Oh yeah I am guessing that 216bhp doesnt come cheap from an mi16 - so in your case you have spent perhaps three times what I paid for my car just on your engine - pot, kettle, black?

Edited September 29, 2006 by bales

[veloce200 3]

lets not got into one of those threads. I started it so I'll stop it. There is no point spending £2500 k for ECU / install for a track car when you can get the same result for half that. However if you've got the money and you feel like you've had a result then that is not a problem. I mean if you are racing in under 2 litre class £10-15k is typical for a competitive engine alone. clearly big bucks but that is when you are racing to win. I think the point here is not a jealously/money thing at all - just a common sense thing - why throw thousands at a car to gain a level of performance that could be achieved more cost effectively?

 

the objective for my project is Lotus Exige performance for a 1/3 of the cost. So if I go much over £5-6k in total then I've missed the point. I'd rather have an Exige than a 205 (well I'd like both actually as I love my Pug ) but I can't afford to buy an Exige let alone crash it. I can however smash my pug to bits and go -"oh well - reshell". Its not about the money but unless you are competing common sense has to come into it somewhere

 

back to topic

 

if I had to suggest MI route for trackdays or road I would go for:

 

ECU (Emerald or KMS)

3 angle seats

cat cams

 

and thats it, then focus on suspension and driver. Power is not the most important thing on track. After all how much grunt does a formula ford have? 100hp... and it will beat an MI with 300hp...

Edited September 29, 2006 by veloce200

[pee vee 1]

Unless you have been in a car that has proper management you really cant appreciate how much better the car runs with it.

 

Im not talking about DIY Megasquirt or quirky Emerald either.

 

 

 

 

 

Which one? I can't see how there can be much diffirence between them other than the software?

 

 

 

 

in fairness Dino DOES have a point to some extent..

in as much as, Better quality ECUs, generally speaking have more mappable load sites etc

(or so im led to believe)

So that means in more expensive ecus, it will probably take longer to map, BUT

the advantage being the map will be more precise to the engines needs thru the rev range...

 

the more load sites you can map to, the nicer the power will feel, as the mapper can be more precise.

and on top of that, power can be better 'optimised' thruoughout the rev range.

might not make a massive difference to overall power,, but the way the car 'drives'

could well be very noticably different thru the rev range as the Map is far more Precise.

 

 

This is how i understood it anyway..

Edited September 29, 2006 by pee vee

[veloce200 3]

in fairness Dino DOES have a point to some extent..

in as much as, Better quality ECUs, generally speaking have more mappable load sites etc

(or so im led to believe)

So that means in more expensive ecus, it will probably take longer to map, BUT

the advantage being the map will be more precise to the engines needs thru the rev range...

 

the more load sites you can map to, the nicer the power will feel, as the mapper can be more precise.

and on top of that, power can be better 'optimised' thruoughout the rev range.

might not make a massive difference to overall power,, but the way the car 'drives'

could well be very noticably different thru the rev range as the Map is far more Precise.

 

 

oh for gods sake Puma Racing please come on here and stop this nonsense. ECUs such as Emerald interpolate between points. having 100 rpm resolution makes little if no difference. eg. if the AFR is constant at 12:5:1 and you've dialed in the ignition to suit with min advance to gain max torque a minute change in fueling between 7100 and 7150 from 12:5:1 - 12:4:1 will do sweet FA. If you'd sat in a car whilst on the rollers you'd understand.

[bales 1]

lets not got into one of those threads. I started it so I'll stop it. There is no point spending £2500 k for ECU / install for a track car when you can get the same result for half that. However if you've got the money and you feel like you've had a result then that is not a problem. I mean if you are racing in under 2 litre class £10-15k is typical for a competitive engine alone. clearly big bucks but that is when you are racing to win. I think the point here is not a jealously/money thing at all - just a common sense thing - why throw thousands at a car to gain a level of performance that could be achieved more cost effectively?

 

the objective for my project is Lotus Exige performance for a 1/3 of the cost. So if I go much over £5-6k in total then I've missed the point. I'd rather have an Exige than a 205 (well I'd like both actually as I love my Pug ) but I can't afford to buy an Exige let alone crash it. I can however smash my pug to bits and go -"oh well - reshell". Its not about the money but unless you are competing common sense has to come into it somewhere

 

back to topic

 

if I had to suggest MI route for trackdays or road I would go for:

 

ECU (Emerald or KMS)

3 angle seats

cat cams

 

and thats it, then focus on suspension and driver. Power is not the most important thing on track. After all how much grunt does a formula ford have? 100hp... and it will beat an MI with 300hp...

 

Completely agree with all of what you said, it was just the tone of some of the posts about a persons car that I thought was a bit out of order.

 

Back to the topic aswell if it were me and it was for the road aswell as trackdays I would not even use a mi16, I would use a 1.98v turbo that ran moderate boost but had a propely sorted head and manifold with an aftermarket ecu. Then you could get maybe 180-190 bhp on moderate boost so not on - off power delivery but with loads of driveable torque too.

 

In fact thats what I intend to do over winter to mine

 

Whether I can hillclimb it in the 2.0 litre + road modified class is something i still need to find out though, if know much about that veloce? It says that induction is free with a +40% displacement penalty in the regs, so I take it you can do this to your xu engine and still be eligible.