Mi16 Myths - Let's Get This Sorted!

[pdd144c 0]

It leaves lines of rubber as it comes on cam in 2nd gear and will spin through 3rd too. Lots of hard work put into it and makes me smile everytime I drive it. NEVER had anything come past it. Blew the gearbox to pieces last weekend so im trying to source another unit at the mo.

 

Maxi

 

 

Take it you didn't fit a LSD then Maxi?

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Take it you didn't fit a LSD then Maxi?

 

 

Nope havent had the time and I also fancy a serious diff...... Ive recently made contact with a guy who has a LOT of experience with mi16 engines, BE boxes and racing setups even in BX's. Hopefully I can source a diff through him when the right one appears.

 

Maxi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Ive recently made contact with a guy who has a LOT of experience with mi16 engines, BE boxes and racing setups even in BX's

Maxi

 

Maxi - this guy may have something (perhaps through you) to input to my original question of practical, off the shelf tuning for the Mi engine???

 

All - I'm realising that, with the aid of Boombang (another voice of sanity), that the head work thing is perhaps an all or nothing thing. In other words, if you spend around £1000 on the head in terms of big valves and a really pucker gas flow and porting session you will realise a decent puma style gain in the region of 20horses. The application of this on road OR track (a key deciding factor) is then going to be determined by the cam profiles and the flow of fuel air in (read: mapping via carbs/TBs with mappable ECU and RR session(s)) and the efficiency of the exhaust system to do its part. You see, I DO pay attention and listen to what's being said.

 

This means following Boomer, PeterT and I think some of the articles re the original stonking head design, that it's pretty damn efficient as it is and as such perhaps only a little TLC and cleaning to sort out obvious flow hinderences such as manufacturing defects or deposits is all that is required in that department, and your hard earned cash could be spent in other areas.

 

***** Now I'm thinking that the most efficient application of effort and money for a 10-20% increase in road practical power would come via the improved inlet (eg cat cam) cam, the aforementioned head 'clean', an exhaust cam reprofile as per recommendation via post on this thread, can see the possible benefit of this (I gather thinner) copper head gasket to slightly raise CR {{{but would like to undertsand why/where from & how much}}} and 4-2-1 manifold AS PHASE ONE - and then the mappable ECU, TB's and verniers to fine tune 'to taste' the torque and power delivery.*****

 

As this thread MAY be wearing thin now - is the above ***** summary a reasonable route to follow, of course not forgetting that the stable backbone of a refurbed/strengthened bottom end is absolutely the first port of call IF one were to pursue more power for use in competition?

 

On a general cam shaft related technical note, is it a reasonable assumption that they don't actually increase power, they just change the way it's delivered?

 

Dr S

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Maxi - just followed your post & link. AT LAST I KNOW WHAT THE 'SLA' IS

 

Awesome - truly awesome.

 

Dr S

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Maxi - just followed your post & link. AT LAST I KNOW WHAT THE 'SLA' IS

 

Awesome - truly awesome.

 

Dr S

 

 

Good old sla........ At least my car gets realistic tuning and gets to actually see the open road. Way too many cars on here driven by idiots wiht too much money and absolutely not a clue what they are doing.

 

If I was to start again with my experience of all the mi's I have done and I do quote MY EXPERIENCE, I would get a non sunroof car, get it as light as poss whilst keeping it a sensible road car, later 2.0 solid block decked as much as poss, 1900 mi crank , head skimmed as far as poss (I have learnt these engines NEED compression and loads of it), and the biggest Cat Cams you can afford. Basically dont touch the head, they flow plenty good enough in std form. Get that compression up and get those valves opening as far as poss. If your on a budget run the std shortened mi inlet and an aftermarkett ECU. That will see a realistic 190BHP, coupled to a 1600 box you have a stupidly fast and more importantly ridiculously fun 205 that dosent just get driven on a track. If budget allows, LSD (Gripper if you want a proper drive ) and a set of yokohama Advans (road legal cut slicks). Nothing will come past if you have bollocks of steel and keep your toe in.

 

Choose to ignore me if you feel so mate, im sure Ronald Mcdonald, his cheque book and std 200 BHP knocking mi will be along soon to tell you otherwise.

 

Maxi

Edited September 23, 2006 by maxi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

That's good stuff Maxi. Apart from the 'if I were able to start again' bit, which is true ONLY if you can - and I can't - it does seem that the logical, economic, usable power gain is derived from a higher CR, a slightly cleaned up head with a better cam set up and a better exhaust manifold - where the mappable ECU and the air/fuel inlet system is where you can go to next.

 

Couple of questions if I may - what's a 'decked' block please?

 

Also, these FSE valves claiming power increase are really just a regulator for the fuel rail that allows higher fuel pressure. A VW ( )GTi tuning friend of mine mentioned just getting a proper higher rated fuel pressure regulator with the option of higher flow injectors to bang more fuel in whilst your valves are now either open longer/more or both. Say the std runs at 3bar then you get a 4bar reg as injectors are often only running at 50% of their capacity. This seems to make sense, particularly if these 'quick fix' FSE power boost jobbies do work, as you can see how they do it - but is it true?

 

Noone's answered my cam question yet; more power or changed delivery?

 

And finally, whilst I agree that the standard ECU is 'not' mappable persay, hence diamond and the one you have, my friend mentioned something called an EPROM (I think), which means the Bosch ECU is popped open and processor carefully removed. Then the hardwired info/map from the standard chip is 'uploaded' to the now fitted EPROM chip, which is in effect like a RW CD, instead of the standard ECU having it's map hardwired, thus giving access to wipes, reloads, changes and uploads, aka RAM.

 

Again this all SEEMS logical, and I have no money but some sense to get me through the day. The replies and comments throughout my thread have been fascinating reading. Yours and others' links to Guy Groft (who my mate knows and respects too which is a good sign of his credibility) and threads on the forum re mapping have made this a total education. I'm trying to extract from that a basic formula for a road usable, improved 180-190ish bhp Mi, that doesn't cost the earth, doesn't (on its own) kill the motor and acts as a step to the next, competitive level.

 

Again, all credit is due to you and other hard working experts and tuners and racers on this forum who have something honest and valuable to contribute. Ofcourse if we all tuned our cars the same there'd be no fun or creativity - it's obviously part of the deal to experiment, push the envelope and seek new goals. As you and a few others have achieved 200+ from N/A Mi's, in some cases without ludicrous outlay, and then have the decency to share 'secrets' etc with the general forum public then really it's hats off to ya.

 

As someone said, you've given some of us a goal to aspire to.

 

Any answers for the above Qs??

 

Dr S

Edited September 23, 2006 by DrSarty

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Decking the block is where the top of the block where the head gaskett would sit is machined flat and at the same time increases compression ratio as the top of the piston is closer to the head.

 

Cams both increase power and deliver it in another area. Depending on profile depends where the power is. Basically the further you are opening the valve and the longer its open for the more power you will make. DO NOT TOUCH THE HEAD, that would be my only advice, you will f uck it up.

 

To make an mi go you need more compression and bigger cams. The std manifold is good for around 190BHP, over that and change for something else.

 

Maxi

[Sandy 189]

On the subject of Myths, the 1.6 box is only shorter than the Mi16 box in 1st and 5th, the two gears which i'd have said you don't want shorter?!

Edited September 23, 2006 by sandy309

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Max, seems logical re cams, and I guess decking is like trueing/even skimming for head...but for the block. (How stupid did that sound ).

 

Reassuring about manifold, coz that's £300 or so saved on the route to +20-30bhp straight away, and is a relatively easy bolt on at any point once the funds are available.

 

As for the Catcams, where do they come from and do they come in varying profiles, in so much as which one represents fast road. Is it one of the numbers quoted in one of the previous replies? I'm guessing inlet only is required at stage 1 (my level), leaving the head otherwise as is?

 

The manifold saving actually lends itself now for the ECU/TB route - all looking very promising and affordable this way. Has anyone heard of PeterT's copper 0.5mm gasket? Where from/cost?

 

Any comments on the fuel regulator point?

 

Dr S

[maturin23 10]

DrS - despite your voluble posting I'm still not sure you've said what are you aiming to do with your projected horses.

 

How, where and why you intend to use the car are significant influences on the 'right' solutions.

 

If it's a track day/fun car and budget is a an issue you could consider saving a few quid by losing weight from the car - increased power to weight ratio and improved handing for zero cost.

 

Also - the search button lights your path. There's a huge volume of genuinely informed and qualified opinions relating exactly to your questions in the archives.

 

Read Dreamweaver's epic topic for a start!

[petert 550]

On the subject of Myths, the 1.6 box is only shorter than the Mi16 box in 1st and 5th, the two gears which i'd have said you don't want shorter?!

 

and 3rd and 4th.

[petert 550]

Has anyone heard of PeterT's copper 0.5mm gasket? Where from/cost?

 

www.ridgecrest.com.au

 

approx. AUS$110

 

I also sell Mi16 cams and other bits and pieces.

 

Here's some real life 1.9L examples that might guide you.

 

185hp

my Stage I inlet regrind, std. exhaust cam, std. inlet & exhaust manifolds, decked block/liners to give 10.8:1, Haltech ECU, individual coils

 

203hp

my Stage II inlet regrind, std. exhaust cam, std. exhaust manifold, 45mm TB's, ported BV head, Haltech ECU, individual coils

Edited September 23, 2006 by petert

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

I'm starting to believe you have no aim at all, and I can't really see the point of this post at all.

It's just an Mi16 after all, you live and learn, and will never get the perfect engine the first time anyway.

 

Btw, about the 250bhp barrier, I've spent a total of 6700£ and still I am not sure it'll make the claimed 250bhp.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm starting to believe you have no aim at all

 

Steady on Black my old Norweigen friend! Really no need for that. I agree with you maturin there's loads of info in previous and archived threads, but if we stuck to those then perhaps controversial posts like mine wouldn't get posted.

 

As for your other comment Black, I won't rise to it and slate you, I don't think the forum's for that.

 

Whilst I've said several times I wanted to achieve a moderate improvement to an already great engine in a wonderful chassis, and that was always intended for just fast road use, I agree perhaps I didn't state clearly enough that it was never going to become a track day car.

 

PeterT thanks for the gasket advice - how'd I guess you sold 'em??? I'll purchase one when the head comes of for its minor clean up, when I put the inlet cam in.

 

I am a 'cleansed' person thanks to this thread. You have to have a clear aim - mine's an affordable, driveable (like the SLA - but not as much) improvement to an already great driving experience. I'm limited by funds, others may not be. I have gleaned and am sure plenty of other newer Mi16 users have loads of top notch guidance re approaches to performance mods here, and whilst there's been a bit of b&llecks it's all been rather useful. Thankyou one and all - yeah, even you Black!

[Sandy 189]

and 3rd and 4th.

 

Gear---1.6 gear ratio---FDR---overall ratio

1st---3.31 or 3.45---4.06---13.4 or 14.0

2nd---1.88---4.06---7.6

3rd---1.36---4.06---5.5

4th---1.07---4.06---4.3

5th---0.865---4.06---3.5

 

Gear---Mi gear ratio---FDR---overall ratio

1st---2.92---4.43---12.9 (taller)

2nd---1.85---4.43---8.2 (shorter)

3rd---1.28---4.43---5.7 (shorter)

4th---0.97---4.43---4.3 (same)

5th---0.76---4.06---3.35 (taller)

 

Making 1st to 4th closer geared on the Mi16 box and the taller first is better for launching. 4th on both boxes is good for 110mph at 7000rpm on 195/50/15 tyres, which is fast enough for most tracks and certainlyfor the road, so 5th can be a nice quieter, more economical gear.

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

There's no Myths regarding the Mi16....

 

Richard Longman has been tuning the Mi16 for a very long time....

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Richard Longman has been tuning the Mi16 for a very long time....

 

Thanks. Is Mr Longman active on this forum (username=?).

 

Cheers rob - Dr S

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

Thanks. Is Mr Longman active on this forum (username=?).

 

Cheers rob - Dr S

 

No he's an engine tuner who did the engines for the 405 BTCC cars for Peugeot. Not cheap but does come up with the goods...

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Steady on Black my old Norweigen friend! Really no need for that. I agree with you maturin there's loads of info in previous and archived threads, but if we stuck to those then perhaps controversial posts like mine wouldn't get posted.

 

As for your other comment Black, I won't rise to it and slate you, I don't think the forum's for that.

 

Whilst I've said several times I wanted to achieve a moderate improvement to an already great engine in a wonderful chassis, and that was always intended for just fast road use, I agree perhaps I didn't state clearly enough that it was never going to become a track day car.

 

PeterT thanks for the gasket advice - how'd I guess you sold 'em??? I'll purchase one when the head comes of for its minor clean up, when I put the inlet cam in.

 

I am a 'cleansed' person thanks to this thread. You have to have a clear aim - mine's an affordable, driveable (like the SLA - but not as much) improvement to an already great driving experience. I'm limited by funds, others may not be. I have gleaned and am sure plenty of other newer Mi16 users have loads of top notch guidance re approaches to performance mods here, and whilst there's been a bit of b&llecks it's all been rather useful. Thankyou one and all - yeah, even you Black!

 

 

So there are some sensible forum members still out there! Catcams can be sourced from Matt at QEP, give him a call, hes the forum sponsor and fellow 205 mi16 nutter! Hes on here as Mattsav.

 

Maxi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks Rob - Boombang's near you I think. I'm getting a 309 GTi rear beam from him FYI. I've decided on my goal (already stated) and plan.

 

With an investment plan of £500 to start I believe it's possible to have the catcam inlet cam, with the copper (petert sourced) gasket and £200 to merely have the head nicely cleaned up (because I only did it orginally with a flapper wheel and a bit of papering). Puma is very near me and I may ask him to do the head with his guidance for a spend in and around that figure. He may say that's not enough to achieve anything in which case I'll leave the head alone completely (as per maxi's rec) and use what's left out of the £500 towards the mappable ECU/R1 carb/manifold/vernier combo, which I suspect will get me what I'm after.

 

A combo of around 20 extra horses and more torque should give me something towards Maxi's but not as awesome, and be a perfectly road driveable tweak on the standard Mi.

 

Regards again to the key contributors.

 

Dr S

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Thanks again Maxi. I'll be in touch with QEP - always wondered who Mattsav was - cheers.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Most people ejaculate when they drive a std mi coupled to a 1600 box. Whatever you build you havent succeeded unless you have accomplished one thing.... a F UCKING GREAT SMILE when you are behind the wheel.

 

205's are cheap, fun hot hatches that make you smile down backlanes. Throwing huge amounts of money at them is not the answer and if you are spending thousands and thousands of pounds on one, you have clearly bought the wrong car to start with and have completely missed the whole point of them.

 

Maxi

Edited September 24, 2006 by maxi

[huxley309 0]

That's a very bold statement to be making on here maxi id be careful

[Robsbc 0 1 Cars]

That's a very bold statement to be making on here maxi id be careful

 

Modt of us have have spent a few pennies to get our 200BHP + Mi16/S16's

[huxley309 0]

exaclty not to mention how much fun they are