205 Mapped But Its Now Crap :(

[damien 22 1 Cars]

abit off topic but you do have any pics of your engine bay?

[Dream Weaver 2]

Lots, what do you need?

 

Just been out messing with it again, and it's even worse now

 

Tried loading the old map and messing with the TPS again, but no joy. Now it won't even start - it sounds like a tractor trying to start up so I really am stuck with it now. Looks like a mobile mapper is required, or I need to learn how to map it myself sharpish

[PumaRacing 1]

First you need to ensure the throttle linkage is working properly. i.e. reaching full throttle with the butterflies horizontal and returning to a stable closed position each time. A proper throttle stop and return spring are obviously needed as you've been told.

 

Then you need to ensure the TPS is operating within its working range at all times. i.e. not fully closed at idle and not reaching full travel before the throttle linkage does. Most TPS's have a much longer travel than the throttle linkage does so provided it is anywhere within its range it will be fine.

 

Once you've achieved those two there should be a menu in the ecu which lets you tell it the TPS position at closed throttle and full throttle. It then interpolates the resistance or voltage signal between those points itself. Back off the idle adjustment screw before doing this so that the closed position is more closed than you would ever normally encounter.

 

It sounds like it's currently interpreting the closed TPS position as being load site 4 instead of load site 0. This should be 30 seconds to fix in the software. Maybe the TPS has actually moved on its mounting since the RR session ended. Could also (but unlikely) be the TPS has developed a fault at the start of its travel so the minimum resistance is now what the ecu used to think of as load site 4. If so a new TPS isn't the end of the world. However as long as you have a TPS resistance that changes linearly over the whole operating range of the butterfly it doesn't really matter as the ecu will relearn the load sites once you apply the relevant menu to tell it the start and end values. Find the correct wires to test and see if the output is linear over a large enough range of travel. That may mean positioning the TPS so as to avoid a bad bit of track at one end of the travel.

 

Once you've stopped panicking and actually think about this for a bit you'll realise that none of it is a very big deal or complex to fix. The maps should still be fine once the ecu knows the correct zero and full throttle positions again.

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Well sounds to me like a remarkably simple issue, a duff TPS. If it was running fine on the rollers then the ECU is set-up correctly. If it later runs crap then the TPS has died or moved.

 

The ECU can't change its settings so it must be the TPS changing. I'd suggest the most likely to be the TPS has moved (if it is adjustable) hence is reading partly open when closed and off the top when WOT...

 

Rob

[Dream Weaver 2]

It is adjustable, so i'll try that angle first and report back over the weekend.

 

Really appreciate everyone's input in this, so thanks

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

P.S. Just applying logic here, no experience at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (not with ECUs anyway, not exactly a stranger to electronics )

[Sandy 189]

How far away from the "driving" spindle is the TPS? Is it actually following the driving one consistently?

[damien 22 1 Cars]

Lots, what do you need?

 

 

if you have a online gallery that would be great, just want to look at your bodies, see how they compare to mine.

[petert 550]

Everyone has given their two bobs, here's mine! With the ECU's I've been involved with, it's not normal to mechanically adjust the TPS. So long as its in a working range of the TPS, not running out of range either way, the rest is done in the software. I would expect there's a setup somewhere to set "Zero" and "Wide Open Settings"? So while the throttle is closed, hit a key, then hold it wide open and hit the key again. This then sets the 0-100% range. Other ECU's will automatically set themselves, ie Motec and Autronic. So either way, you're not going to screw the mapping.

 

 

If you're getting a reliable range, somewhere between 0 and 5000 ohms as you turn the throttle (nothing connected to the TPS) there's nothing wrong with the TPS.

[M3Evo 0]

Seems that the Emerald assumes that there's a minimum vaule that's acceptable and won't go below or above that so when the pot's knackered, it won't set the TPS properly.

 

He's already said that there's nothing in the region of 5000ohms too (said drunk ales harshly)

[Mattsav 1]

It sounds like nothing more than a knackered TPS.

 

Charlie has had a couple of GSXR TPS's fail on his 106. You get odd flat spots or the load sites go up in the correct linear way but stick on the way down or they stick on the way up, suddenly jumping 5 load sites etc.

Makes driving very interesting.

 

The Full load sites must have been working to take the final power run after mapping.

 

Stick a new TPS on and see what happens.

[Dream Weaver 2]

Just tested the TPS tonight with the ignition and ECU powered up.

 

It was reading 1.3v closed throttle, and moves up evenly to 4.89v on WOT, though it does then go back to 0.15v when you press the throttle further. So, not sure if that's working or not???

 

With regards the throttle stop and return spring, anyone any advice on this? From what Mike was saying, the throttle stop would push against the throttle cam when it returns to closed and would stop any "sticking" that it does suffer from when fully closed - I take it by adding an adjustable stop you can leave the plates slightly open to avoid sticking.

 

But what about a stop on the other end of the cam, i.e. when approaching WOT? This would stop the full throttle problem, but would be more of a mask, and wouldn't get rid of the load site issues.

 

As for fitting a new TPS, the GSXR one fitted is held on with torx headed screws, but they have a metal lobe inside so I can't actually unscrew them to remove the TPS!!

 

Where is best for a new TPS, scrappy or order the Calvern type from RS?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

As for fitting a new TPS, the GSXR one fitted is held on with torx headed screws, but they have a metal lobe inside so I can't actually unscrew them to remove the TPS!!

You need a proper security torx type bit with the pin hole in the middle from your description, I think I should have one. What torx size is it?

 

Looking on Autodata for the TPS readings for an 8P equipped car they are;

ignition on- output 5v

ignition on- ecm earth circuit 0v

ignition on- throttle closed input signal 0.3v

ignition on-WOT input signal 4.5v.

Also what size are the bolt spacings on the TPS as I might have one somewhere you could try. Does it have to have a D-shaped spindle fitting?

 

Graham.

[Rippthrough 98]

.

 

As for fitting a new TPS, the GSXR one fitted is held on with torx headed screws, but they have a metal lobe inside so I can't actually unscrew them to remove the TPS!!

 

A lot OEM throttle pots do, sometimes you can buy a torx bit to fit. The cheap way is to either drill them out, or drill one of your torx bits to fit.

[Butler 0]

Just break the pin out of the middle and use a standard torx. Works on GSF driving lights.

[Dream Weaver 2]

Never seen the security torx before

 

Think i'll just buy the proper torx bits for a fiver, can't get a drill in there due to space restrictions.

 

I also reckon the TPS track is out slightly, confirmed by looking at the figures posted by Graham above. If there are 15 load sites, and the TPS runs from 0v to 5v, then each load site is 0.333v and my TPS on closed throttle is 1.3v, which would equate to the load site 4 showing in the ECU.

 

So in theory, if I can move the TPS round until closed throttle is 0-0.3v then that should realign the TPS, will try it this week.

 

Next job is to work out how to cobble the throttle stop/return spring together

 

Graham - i'll measure the TPS and get back to you, cheers

[pugrallye 0]

Your gsxr bodies originally would have come with a throttle stop, did it get junked when you relaced the throttle cable cam?

[Dream Weaver 2]

Yeah, they had a couple of stops on them, but the throttle action was very poor with the small cam, so I had to change it for a std Mi16 throttle cam, which needed cutting down to clear the filter, so there are no tabs on the cam now.

 

Think I will tig a small tag to the cam and use the original throttle stop screw. I gather the return spring just needs to be attached against the turn of the cam to pull it back.

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Never seen the security torx before

 

Think i'll just buy the proper torx bits for a fiver, can't get a drill in there due to space restrictions.

Just break the pin out of the middle and use a standard torx. Works on GSF driving lights.

You can usually break the pin out with a screwdriver, I've managed it before but I paid £1 (Poundland ) for the secuirty Torx bits I've got or you should be able to get a bit from a handymans for less than £1. Just check the have a dimple for the centre pip.

 

Graham.

[Dream Weaver 2]

Cool, better get to Poundland later on then

[phatgti 0]

With certain types of TPS they keep on turning but if you go to far the signal goes to infinity and will make the ECU go haywire.

 

Like it has been said before you just calibrate it between closed throttle and WOT.

 

You cannot drive the car like this, if it's dropping back to .15 when you floor it it'll just stop squirting fuel basically or cut the spark - if it's messing about and runnign lean you'll end up killing the engine.

 

Have you spoken to the mapper yet? you need to quick otherwise he may not want to know if you have been tampering.

 

With regards to power we did an Mi16 last year that had pretty much everything for a 220bhp spec but the emerald held it back and even Dave walker couldn't squeeze more than 193bhp out of it.

Edited August 23, 2006 by phatgti

[petert 550]

With regards to power we did an Mi16 last year that had pretty much everything for a 220bhp spec but the emerald held it back and even Dave walker couldn't squeeze more than 193bhp out of it.

 

The symptom of an ECU not having enough processing speed/power to process 60-2 Motronic signals at high RPM.

[phatgti 0]

Interesting, i didnt know that.

 

Are they compatible with the 36 tooth trigger wheel?

 

:edit:

That would probably make it worse.

Edited August 23, 2006 by phatgti

[smckeown 1]

The symptom of an ECU not having enough processing speed/power to process 60-2 Motronic signals at high RPM.

 

 

 

Hmm i seriously doubt it's not fast enough. The emerald and KMS ECUs use the same chip (motorola 16bit). And there have been plenty of cars mapped on emerald way over this figure.

[M3Evo 0]

Can't it handle up to like 15500rpm too?