205 Mapped But Its Now Crap :(

[Dream Weaver 2]

Finally had the 205 mapped today at Mikeanics.

 

I got up at 6am for the drive down, and had a nice journey down - car was idling well when stopped, and pulling strongly throughout the gears, but it still had its annoying exhaust pop on overrun and I wasn't sure if it was running rich/lean etc??

 

The car was nice to drive at this point though.

 

Arrived at Mike's about 8:30am and he asked me to lose myself for the morning and call back at lunch time, so I went and walked round Congleton about 5 times, even went in the library for a bit.

 

Went back at 12, and all was reported to be well - Lambda boss had been welded in, useful for the future, and Mike said the base Emerald map was almost there, just had a few holes in it here and there that he would sort.

 

He told me he would only need another hour so I went off for some lunch and another walk round Congleton.

 

Came back at 1pm, and he mentioned that the bodies had been well out of balance, but he'd balanced them up and re did the fuelling map to compensate - they just need a return spring adding and a proper throttle stop for minor adjustments. He also says the idle is now out and it will keep stalling - great!!

 

So I set off, really looking forward to the drive home but it now has the following traits:

 

1. Stalls whenever I stop, so I have to use the old handbrake/throttle method to stop.

2. Falters when you apply full throttle, so it's fine for most of the pedal travel, but when you shove the pedal into the carpet it just cuts power and starts coasting down.

3. Further on in the journey it started misfiring.

4. Now it wont idle, tickover or run properly on slow speeds, just misfires and stalls.

 

At least the exhaust backfiring had gone though.

 

I was expecting to get a nice smooth motor back, but it's a nightmare

 

Having checked the Emerald settings with no throttle applied, the throttle pot is showing:

 

Load site: 4

Throttle position: 25%

 

If you apply throttle, it then shoots up to 15 on near full throttle, then goes to Load site 0 when full travel is applied, so it goes 1....15, 0

 

I tried loading my old base map in, but the throttle pot settings overide the map so now i'm stuck with this horrible to drive car that I hate again

 

Anyone any ideas on what I can do to get my TPS sorted and back to normal and get it idling? I assume the none idle is because its referencing load site 4 instead of 0.

 

The results were:

 

Power: 173.1 bhp at 7,495 rpm

Torque: 127 lb/ft at 6,370 rpm

 

Less than I was expecting but hey ho, at least more than std from the bike bodies

 

Mike reckoned the bike bodies were no worse than a set of Jenvey's, except the linkage issues.

 

Back to the drawing board again, anyone want to buy it?

 

Oh, and i've tried re calibrating the throttle pot via the laptop but it makes no difference.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Dream Weaver

[Jonmurgie 2]

Ah mate, sorry to hear all is not well... I can't believe that Mike (who seems to have a good reputation on here so far) let you go home with a car that was WORSE then when it arrived?!

 

I can't help you with your questions though... hopefully someone will come up with some answers. I'm sure there is a way to get decent power out of your motor with the TB's, I can't believe Mike said hey were as good as the Jenveys (save for the linkage) when you left with an un-drivable car and only a handful of BHP above standard!

 

Chin-up though mate... you'll get it sorted I'm sure

[Dream Weaver 2]

TBH Mike was sound as anything, and knows his stuff, plus it didn't cost the earth - i'm just annoyed the car is crap to drive compared to before.

 

I would take it back there though, sound bloke

 

He did say the idle issue would be sorted by adding a throttle stop and stronger throttle return spring - he's had to advance the ignition to account for no control over throttle stop position - I don't understand how that works though, and it wont help with the TPS settings being wrong on full load either.

 

When its running, it definately feels much better, its just that its so crap on idle and full throttle, which kind of ruins the experience

 

I think the shorter 65mm trumpets shove the power a bit high up, and are the reason for the lowish torque. I'm not too concerned about the numbers as it feels so much quicker than my old engine.

[petert 550]

Nothing to do with your driveability problems, but what bore diameter are the bike TB's?

[phatgti 0]

I know different rollers read differently Simon but i wasn't expecting that figure at all.

I don't need to tell you it has a dropped a little in power but then again its not a numbers game is it? its how it drives and im sure you'll sort it.

[M3Evo 0]

That throttle pot thing sounds very familiar!

 

I had exactly the same thing when mine melted (was one from emerald but a quick search on RS reveals they're only rated up to 110degreed C)

 

Try just realigning the TPS in the software as it might just be that and it takes 2 seconds to do, other than that, put a multimeter accross the pins.

 

Should read about 300ohms between Green and Black, and about 4800ohms between Green and Red with the throttle closed on a good TPS

Edited August 17, 2006 by M3Evo

[Dream Weaver 2]

Nothing to do with your driveability problems, but what bore diameter are the bike TB's?

 

40mm internal, 45mm at the trumpet end.

 

I know different rollers read differently Simon but i wasn't expecting that figure at all.

I don't need to tell you it has a dropped a little in power but then again its not a numbers game is it? its how it drives and im sure you'll sort it.

 

It is down on the original 181bhp figure when you had the engine, but therein lies the problem - the bike bodies may be knocking power down by up to 20/30bhp but the engine mods are compensating - without using the same rollers it's hard to tell.

 

That throttle pot thing sounds very familiar!

 

I had exactly the same thing when mine melted (was one from emerald but a quick search on RS reveals they're only rated up to 110degreed C)

 

Try just realigning the TPS in the software as it might just be that and it takes 2 seconds to do, other than that, put a multimeter accross the pins.

 

Should read about 300ohms between Green and Black, and about 4800ohms between Green and Red with the throttle closed on a good TPS

 

That's interesting, it was very hot outside today, so must have been boiling inside the dyno area. I'll check the terminals - i've re-aligned it already on the way home so I could test it, and nearly got killed when the power cut again as it made no difference.

[smckeown 1]

sorry to hear your bad luck. I'd be on the phone with him to see what can be done to sort the situation out etc

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

yeah it seems you've not phoned him yet for a bit of consulting.

 

 

1. Stalls whenever I stop, so I have to use the old handbrake/throttle method to stop.

why not use the new heel and toe method?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

That sucks Simon, I'd definately be on the phone back to him as there is no way it should be worse on idle than it was on a home made map before he looked at it imo especially if;

the base Emerald map was almost there, just had a few holes in it here and there that he would sort.

Graham.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

If it shows load site 4 when no throttle applied that's most likely the only thing that's wrong.

Really sure it doesn't work to re-calibrate the ECU? I would try that again a couple of times.

 

If it shows load site 4 when no throttle applied that's most likely the only thing that's wrong.

Really sure it doesn't work to re-calibrate theTPS? I would try that again a couple of times.

[Sandy 189]

Are you saying he did some mapping before checking the balancing? Weird.

[Kev-G 1]

Why did you not take it for a drive before you left + go straight back with the probs. for him to fix? He should have offered for you to do this anyway.

 

Even if you had not tested it, why did you not turn around and go back when on your journey home? IIRC you are over 1 hr. away from him.

 

 

Re-read again - Why did he let you leave with a known idle issue....

Edited August 18, 2006 by Kev-G

[Craigb 2]

:

 

Having checked the Emerald settings with no throttle applied, the throttle pot is showing:

 

Load site: 4

Throttle position: 25%

 

If you apply throttle, it then shoots up to 15 on near full throttle, then goes to Load site 0 when full travel is applied, so it goes 1....15, 0

 

 

Oh, and i've tried re calibrating the throttle pot via the laptop but it makes no difference.

 

What you are sugesting above is that the throttle is not always returning due to the insufficient return spring pressure . If the pot can read zero sometimes and not others i would take mikes advise and fit a better spring and throttle stop with adjustment .

 

Did he switch on the emerald , idle stabalisation feature ? this only works when it has a tps input of zero , so if you are not zeroing ,

 

Just re read that , and it may be the fact that full throttle is going past the scope of the TPS have you tried rotating the TPS to ensure that full travel is equal to load site 15. A mechanical operation rather than just calibrating against the throttle movement you have ?

 

Could also be a duff TPS.

[Dream Weaver 2]

sorry to hear your bad luck. I'd be on the phone with him to see what can be done to sort the situation out etc

 

yeah it seems you've not phoned him yet for a bit of consulting.

why not use the new heel and toe method?

 

Going to ring him back this morning, see what can be done. The car is undriveable now, so whatever is done will have to be done here by me.

 

That sucks Simon, I'd definately be on the phone back to him as there is no way it should be worse on idle than it was on a home made map before he looked at it imo especially if;

Graham.

 

Precisely!! As you know the idle was perfect before

 

If it shows load site 4 when no throttle applied that's most likely the only thing that's wrong.

Really sure it doesn't work to re-calibrate the ECU? I would try that again a couple of times.

 

I tried re calibrating it three times but it didn't work

 

Are you saying he did some mapping before checking the balancing? Weird.

 

That's what I gathered from the timings - at 12 all was well, but 1 hour later he mentioned the balancing issues and having to do the fuelling again.

 

Why did you not take it for a drive before you left + go straight back with the probs. for him to fix? He should have offered for you to do this anyway.

 

Even if you had not tested it, why did you not turn around and go back when on your journey home? IIRC you are over 1 hr. away from him.

 

 

Re-read again - Why did he let you leave with a known idle issue....

 

I did take it for a test drive, but it was in the town centre and there wasn't any roads nearby that I knew of to open it up fully to spot the full load issue - I did some quick full load runs but it didn't show the problem - it also felt really good, nice and smooth and quicker than before so I was happy. It was only 20 odd miles down the road it started playing up and I had to meet Martin@PRD and then be back home for 3:30 ish to hand our Focus over to its new owner, so didn't have time to go back then and thought it would be easy to solve myself. The misfiring developed much nearer to home so by that stage it was too late to go back.

 

What you are sugesting above is that the throttle is not always returning due to the insufficient return spring pressure . If the pot can read zero sometimes and not others i would take mikes advise and fit a better spring and throttle stop with adjustment .

 

Did he switch on the emerald , idle stabalisation feature ? this only works when it has a tps input of zero , so if you are not zeroing ,

 

Just re read that , and it may be the fact that full throttle is going past the scope of the TPS have you tried rotating the TPS to ensure that full travel is equal to load site 15. A mechanical operation rather than just calibrating against the throttle movement you have ?

 

Could also be a duff TPS.

 

The TPS never shows zero, even when pressed in by hand it starts at 4 all the time. From comparing my new map to the old one, the ony things to be changed were the fuelling and ignition maps, and a few other bits - everything else remained the same, idle stabilisation etc etc

 

I thought about physically turning the TPS, but i'm unsure how that will affect the mapping as I assume that will throw everything out?? I need to check which way its set as well to ensure I can move it back some more.

 

The TPS was fine before, so if its duff now it's something that's been done to it.

 

I would've been better investing in a Wideband kit and mapping the thing myself on the road.

[Craigb 2]

The TPS never shows zero, even when pressed in by hand it starts at 4 all the time. From comparing my new map to the old one, the ony things to be changed were the fuelling and ignition maps, and a few other bits - everything else remained the same, idle stabilisation etc etc

 

I thought about physically turning the TPS, but i'm unsure how that will affect the mapping as I assume that will throw everything out?? I need to check which way its set as well to ensure I can move it back some more.

 

As a test , why not take the tps off of the spindle , and see if it will fully return and show zero , and its not the spindle preventing it from its full travel?

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

As a test , why not take the tps off of the spindle , and see if it will fully return and show zero , and its not the spindle preventing it from its full travel?

 

It's not a problem anyway if the TPS has been turned when he did the balancing, as this is exactly when you are supposed to use the TPS calibration on the Emerald.

 

And as it's indicating loadsite 0 when WOT this must (as mentioned by Craigb too) mean that the TPS exceeds the voltage-band the TPS will give out between Closed throttle and WOT. When it exceeds it ECU won't understand a thing and hence set it to loadsite 0, stalling the engine...

[Dream Weaver 2]

I did a quick ohms test on the TPS last night, but wasn't sure which wires to use as mine are brown, black and red.

 

I tried all combinations though, and on closed throttle I was getting between 900 and 1500 ohms, so maybe the TPS is now screwed??

[M3Evo 0]

Just to confirm, it is an Emerald ECU isn't it?

 

Would imagine that red would be +5v, black would be 0v and the brown wire would be the signal. so measuring accross the red and black should give a reading that's the sum of the other two readings i.e. 2400ohms in your case, whereas it should be more like 5100ohms.

 

Sounds to me like you've got a duff TPS as the symptoms you describe are exactly what I had, including the software not re-aligning to the new values.

Edited August 18, 2006 by M3Evo

[James_R 3]

As said, sounds very like a TPS issue you're having, but also as mentioned, try removing the TPS from the bodies and putting it back on so that the shut throttle puts a slight preload on the TPS, then try again.

 

But if it's been mapped like that, as soon as you fix the TPS the map that been done on the odd TPS values, will mean nothing, so you'll have ot laod the base map up again.

 

As for the exhuast popping. Once the TPS issue is corrected, set the overrun cut abotu 4 numbers higher than the shut throttle pot number (go in to helpo diag dat for that number) save the map and load it, then the popping will go away.

 

Good luck, least it's only niggles nothing major.

[Dream Weaver 2]

Bugger

 

So if I sort the TPS out, the 4 hours mapping he did is out the window, not to mention the £220 it cost and the full day off work?

 

This car just gets me more and more depressed each day

 

I'll have to speak to Mike on Monday, didn't get chance today due to trying to catch up with work, and tbh I was too annoyed to be bothered with it.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Really sorry to hear of your troubles mate. At the end of the day I didnt speak to the mapper myself but it sounds to me like I would be asking serious questions. Power is LOW too I would say, although it does go to show its hard to get proper power with TB's on a std mi lump. We are back to the old "std inlet is very very hard to beat" scenario. Unless you are on a massive engine spec I would always just run a set of large CATCAMs, std inlet and management. That will get you over 180BHP and 100% reliability with fantastic driveability and fun factor.

 

Maxi

[damien 22 1 Cars]

i would of taken it back to the mappers as soon as i noticed a problem.

 

on a brighter note after 7 days my bike bodied gti6 is running sweet as a nut, much better than it was when standard

 

hope you get it sorted

[16v205 9]

Really sorry to read about this Dreamweaver , especially after all the work youve put into it. Id give Mike a ring and ask if he noticed anything whilst mapping.

 

Am I going to be the first one to say that Mikeanics should have picked up a dodgy throttle pot within 5 minutes of starting to work on the car?

Surely with any profession you always assume the customer knows nothing and start from the beginning, map the throttle pedal, check trumpet balance, get a decent idle then map pedal again?

You'd definatly notice the throttle pot failing under mapping though, if it doesnt go below load site 4 whilst being mapped then all the load sites would be out.

 

I might be jumping the gun a little, maybe the tps was working fine whilst being mapped and it failed on the way home What throttle pot are you using?

 

Rich

Edited August 18, 2006 by 16v205

[Dream Weaver 2]

It's just the std GSXR TPS and has worked fine for 500 miles.

 

I kept asking him if all was OK whilst I was there, so I asked about how it was running, how the engine was doing, what the bodies were like etc etc and every time he said all was well.

 

Something must've happened in that final hour, because when I went back at 12 it was on the rollers and Mike was mapping it at the time - it was idling fine, and running up fine on the rollers, all temps were OK and it sounded great.

 

1 hour later and it won't idle or run properly and now its a pile of poo. He explained the idle situation (sort of) so I ignored that bit as I left, and the full throttle issue only happened after I was quite a way off, and the first few times it happened I thought it was the rev limiter hence why I didn't go back there (plus I needed to get home as mentioned).

 

Just feel like torching the thing now.