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RossD

Just a quick note - and this thread seems like the best place for it:

 

If anyone is rebuilding one of these like myself, the EW10J4S (GTi180) big end bearings are different to the normal EW10 engines. Therefore the aftermarket Glyco bearings DON'T FIT. The aftermarket catalogues are incorrect as they say that the bearings fit both the J4 and J4S.

 

Unfortunately, this means you have to use genuine Peugeot bearings of the correct grade at about £75.

 

I think you can probably guess how I've found this out!

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welshpug

doh! what exactly is the difference?

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RossD

The J4S bearing has 2 locating 'tangs' whereas the Glyco bearing only has one. However, the single tang on the Glyco bearing is wider and so it wont fit the J4S rod.

The pictures below illustrate the situation perfectly.

 

DSC_0520_zpsb1fa2vg6.jpg

Glyco bearing on left, standard J4S bearing on the right.

 

DSC_0521_zpsbpe0cmrf.jpg

Single tang is too wide (and incorrect) for the J4S rod.

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Tuuba

That´s not a problem. Here in Finland, original bearings would hav been 360€ total (about 280 pounds).

So I fitted those Clyco´s and they´ve worked fine. Size is exactly the same as OE´s (OE has different sizes of lower half though).

All you need is a little file and fit that tang into rod. The tangs are only for easier fitment, nothing to do with keeping them in place when in use. When you tighten up the big end, the bearing will "crimp" into the big end. Many engines do not have those tangs at all.

For the record, Many catalog shows wrong parts to EW10J4S, they don´t understand its totally different from STD EW10, for exaple, Cylinder head bolts are too long in many brands and for example, TRW Engine components catalog shows that EW10 and EW10J4S has same valves. They don´t. You have to look it from EW12 and you get them correct.

I got wrong intake valve guides and machinist noticed it when he had installed them. Everything else was good but stem seals didn´t fit...

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RossD

Peugeot obviously felt the need to put 2 tangs on each shell on this engine (compared to just 1 on the 'normal' EW engine) for a reason, so I wasn't prepared to frankly start altering bearings.

 

Totally agree on the differences between the engines - I don't think there is a common major component shared between the J4 and J4S engine. They are, to all intents and purposes, different engines when you start looking at all the subtle and not so subtle differences between them. Different heads, cams, pistons, rods, cranks, bearings, cambelts, flywheels.... the list goes on.

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Sandy

I think the 180s were produced on a different line. They went to a lot of trouble to produce an engine that still wasn't very good as standard; there must have been some managerial issues or something, it's very odd! If someone like Honda was going to that trouble, you'd probably have well over 200bhp and safe high RPM!

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dcc

Where do you see the main weaknesses of the 180 engine Sandy?

 

If building one of these, looking at key areas for improvement, where would you start? What are the key design flaws as wuch?

 

I have spent many hours reading the first few pages of this thread to digest as much of the info as possible!

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wicked

Note that the Glyco catalog is not always accurate; I had an issue with the XU10J2TE big end bearings; they list the big end bearings of the 2.1TD engine for it, while you should use normal XU10 big end bearings for it.

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Tuuba

Peugeot obviously felt the need to put 2 tangs on each shell on this engine (compared to just 1 on the 'normal' EW engine) for a reason, so I wasn't prepared to frankly start altering bearings.

As I said, those tangs are just for production line alignment assist, no real function in operation. The bearings are "crimped" in the rod, so they have nothing to do there after installation. I tested one set earlier, that engine which bent it´s rods and there were no sign of abnormal wear or damage in any bearing half. As you can see, that one tang is just little too wide for the rod´s groove. When ou file it, the bearing sits just correctly an gets nowhere from it´s place. At least in my two engines, those were just as thick as originals and they provide just the same clearance as OE.

 

But of course, if the originals give you better night sleep, use them :)

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Sandy

Where do you see the main weaknesses of the 180 engine Sandy?

 

If building one of these, looking at key areas for improvement, where would you start? What are the key design flaws as wuch?

 

I have spent many hours reading the first few pages of this thread to digest as much of the info as possible!

The weaknesses are mostly the same as the base EW10, that's my point, they didn't really move it on much for all the differences.

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Alan_M

The more I read about EW engines, the more I'm tempted to go this route rather than 1.9 Mi16.

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Paul_13

Dread to think what would happen to a mi16 if I got hold of one

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filipe

Greetings,

 

First of all, sorry if this is the wrong location. I'm trying to improve the performance of my EW10A flexfuel engine, on a street-legal car, so nothing wild, and since the car has many multiplexed eletronic systems (it's a Citroën C4), my goal is to stick with the standard eletronic injection, a Magneti Marelli 6KPB.

 

Along with a gas-flowed cylinder head (with reinforced valvetrain and bigger valves, that are close to EW10J4S specs), Catcams 4903402, EW10J4S exhaust and inlet manifold, I have mounted a big J4S eletronic throttle body (my default throttle body is also eletronic, but with smaller diameter), which according to SEDRE, shares the same wiring pattern as the standard piece.

 

Problem is: when the car is stopped and engine is turned on, everything runs fine, I can rev at all ranges without errors or problems. If I make a quick launch, I can drive until top speed with no problem too, BUT, if I start to move slowly, by releasing clutch, and/or small press on accelerator only, or if after a quick launch, I need to brake to stop at a red light, when the revs drop to the 1500-2000 RPM range, I get fault code P1160 (air intake pressure) and engine enters security mode (I need to stop the car, turn engine off and on again, and it starts normally).

I have checked for any possible air leaks on cylinder head or intake manifold and I can't find none. I have done some search through the 206 GTI / S16 / RC community, and found out that on the later S16, with eletronic throttle, it's claimed impossible to fit the J4S throttle body, although the reasons are a bit unclear. I don't know if this applies to me, because those 206 S16 with EW10J4 engine run Marelli 6LP1, and my EW10A runs Marelli 6KPB.

I'm trying to get another J4S throttle body to test, but they are quite rare here in Brazil, or maybe change my injection ECU to 6LPA. Other than that, it's quite hard to find EW10 information around the web, even harder if it's EW10A related info.

Regards.

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wicked

Did you calibrate the throttle body? It might not be completely closed when the ECU thinks it is.

Calibration on (a NFU 1.6 16v) is done this way:

  • unlock and enter the car
  • turn on ignition
  • wait 10sec or so
  • press full throttle for 5-10 sec
  • release the throttle
  • wait another 10 sec
  • turn off ignition.

 

Not sure if it can be done on a EW10 in a similar way, but you could google for it.

Edited by wicked

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welshpug

has the map been corrected to work with your modifications?

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filipe

Hello,

@Wicked

 

The calibration was done through the DiagBox scanner, and it changed nothing :( in fact, DiagBox doesn't call the procedure as a calibration, where I should be able to select what throttle body is being used etc, it refers simply as "throttle body auto-adjustment", so I guess it might have the same function.

 

 

I haven't tried the method you described, but it is worth a test.

 

 

@Welshpug

 

Yes, the injection tuner even tried testing the parameters from a 6LPA into the 6KPB, nothing changed.

 

 

 

 

Now the injection tuner and I think this issue could be related to the throttle body itself! We have opened both the EW10A stock and the J4S one, the magnets and such are identical, but the resistance on the small circuit board is different. Since the boards appear to have the same dimension, we will try to put the 10A board on the J4S throttle body and see what happens.

 

Regards.

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Schumi

The weaknesses are mostly the same as the base EW10, that's my point, they didn't really move it on much for all the differences.

 

Which is ? Oil pump and rods ? :)

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RDSE

Can anyone help me with a dimensions query - it may seem a strange question but I have good reasons! What is the cylinder spacing on the EW engine? I think it is 93, but that is from memory and I need to be sure, thanks!

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gingieboi

Has anyone had any problems with the ew10j4s engine not letting oil run from the head back to the sump quick enough?

I've fitted bodies to it so have fit a separate oil catch tank and breather from the cam cover which works fine until it's driven at high rpm for long periods then it fills the catch tank up, overflows and makes a right mess! The engine doesn't seem to be breathing excessively so I took it for a few runs gradually increasing sustained rpm, pulling over and checking it and for ages the catch tank was totally empty but push it that little bit more and all of a sudden it's like the cam covers have so much oil in them it's just pushing it up my breather pipe and filling it up instantly. Is there anything extra I should have done after fitting the throttle bodies as I know the original inlet had breathers running through it? I remember hearing stories about mi16 engines getting starved of oil because the oil couldn't run from the head back to the sump quick enough so was thinking this could be a similar problem and if it is any ideas of a fix? I have a rally next weekend so I need to get it sorted ASAP!

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Kane

Its been mentioned in this thread and elsewhere a few times I'm sure, the oil pump is the weak link to this engine at sustained high rpm and is therefore recommended to dry sump when used seriously in competition. Not 100% sure of the ins and outs of it but I'm sure someone will be along soon to confirm

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gingieboi

The thing is I don't see how a dry sump kit would cure it as its not an oil pressure problem as such, the pump is pumping enough pressure and there is enough oil getting back to the sump to keep it fed but just so much oil still in the head that it's going up the breather.

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welshpug

whats the history of the engine and what rpm are you giving it?

 

what have you done with the crank case breathers?

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gingieboi

The engine came out of a 206, done 60k but the owner wasn't the type to drive it hard it had an easy life up until now.

As for the crank case breathers the only ones on it now that the inlet has been changed are the one just above the sump and the one on the side of the head. Originally I put a pipe from the one on the side of the head to the one above the sump and tee'd of that pipe to add in a catch tank/breather, when it started throwing the oil out the breather I thought there may be too much oil running down that pipe for a breather so I blocked off that tee and drilled out the hole in the exhaust cam cover which is blanked off on the 180 and fitted the breather to there but it's still the same.

I'm revving to about 7k which it should handle fine really.

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dcc

I havent heard of this issue bi

Eing common at all. I can only imagine you have an issue of some sort.

 

The head of the ew10j4s has 2 very large oil drains. The 12 however does only have 1 of these open (restriction is gasket only) and still I had no issues when I gave the poor 407 death for 250 miles.

 

On the ew's that I had dissassembled I did note how badly they seem to collect oily sludge everywhere. Breathers were full off it too.

 

Personally think your engine has a breathing issue possibly even a badly setup breather system

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razza987

With less opening and closing speed available (follower diameter dictates safe maximum), less lift can be achieved within a duration window. This window can be pushed by running on the edge of the follower or by reducing the ramp to flank transition and making the initial acceleration more violent (as Cat profiles typically do compared to others), which gives a sharp induction note and good dynamic CR, but at the expense of durability; harder on followers, springs and seats, especially on solid lifters if the clearances widen marginally. I favour keeping more margin in the valvetrain and optimising cylinder filling in other ways, requires smarter development, but is more reliable and the performance lasts better beyond the initial headline dyno session!

Hi Sandy,

Is this confirmation that the XU cams would physically fit in the head of the EW? Could a pair of standard XU cams from a 306 gti-6 be used in a 180 engine as means of dispensing with the VVT? Or even a pair of mild stage 1 or 2 cams? I understand what you're saying about follower size, but does that only become an issue when looking at race cams?

Cheers,

Raz

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