[engine_work] 205 Dimma 4x4 Gti6 Supercharged

[gti-si 0]

Good progress mate. Just remember the engine sits at 30 degree's, so you may not have as much clearance as you think with the radiator.

[M@tt 77]

right I've been having a play with a few pulley setups the past couple of nights

 

Basically there's a slight problem in that the pulley on the SC is too big for the standard crank pulley ie it won't spin as fast as it should, I've started a new thread here about that particular issue. But after more playing i think the only viable reliable option is to bin off the magnetic clutch mechanism and have a smaller pulley made. (yes Tom you were right )

 

Yesterday however myself and Tom Fenton dismantled the clutch to see how it worked and thrashed around possible solutions

 

The clutch mechanism consisted of an induction coil, the pulley body and a splined drive plate. The way it works is electricity flows through the induction coil magnetising the pulley body making it stick to the drive plate and therefore the pulley rotating is now driving the supercharger, quite simple really!!

 

Induction Coil

Pulley Body

Drive Plate

All disassembled

 

So with that in mind i used a pulley from a M45 supercharger which is the right size mocked up on the supercharger.

 

As the intention is to have the SC down where the aircon pump sits usually in front of the sump i was hoping that the standard pulley setup from an aircon and PAS model would do the trick. Marksorrento205 kindly sorted me out with the bottom tensioner i was missing(although found one in my pile of parts after the event doh!!) so i was able to see how it all fitted.

 

How's about that!!! looks almost factory!!

 

anyway things weren't quite as rosy as the first seemed. As you can see, due to the large tensioner the belt runs closely underneath it so it kind of dictates where the SC can be positioned otherwise I'd find the belt would be rubbing on the bottom of the tensioner arm

 

 

the second thing was that i really wasn't happy with the amount of contact area the belt was having with the smaller SC pulley, i think it's very likely to slip with higher revs. As you can see only about 1/4 of it was in contact

 

so with that i reluctantly removed the bottom tensioner and had a play with a couple of spare pulleys and came up with this as i viable solution

 

the dotted area in green will be the new mounting plate for the 2 additional pulleys. Its shape enables it to be secured safely by multiple points on the block, sump and top mount, and as you can see the SC pulley is fully wrapped and shouldn't have any slipping problems.

 

The only slight issue is now that I've removed the bottom spring tensioner I'll need some other way of tensioning the belt.

 

I think my options are to take up the slack by having the alternator on an adjustable bracket or possibly use a 306 Rallye setup top pulley as that is adjusted by a screw.

 

Oh and there appears to be quite a lot of nice space at the moment to build the outlet pipe from the SC

 

 

comments, opinions??

Edited August 25, 2009 by M@tt

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

just read through from the beginning very interesting so far, would love to try something like this one day. Regarding the belt tensioning could you not make up a new mounting plate with elongated holes for the top idler and tension the belt that way?

[M@tt 77]

i think the easiest way is to just use the 306 rallye top tensioner, you take up the belt slack by tightening bolt no. 5 before tigtehning the 2 other bolts to hold it inplace. It should do the job nicely i reckon

 

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

comments, opinions??

 

Comment: awesome!

 

Opinion: keep the green wire and random spade connectors as a permanent fixing method for the supercharger.

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

Having been through all of this... ...but no way the Jedi Master! Here are my comments...

 

Is it going to fit in the car like that, as someone else already pointed on don forget the engine leans back… engines on stands are deceptive.

 

I think you’re going to need more belt rap on the charger pulley to prevent slipping, just look how much there is on the PAS pump!

 

Don’t forget your still need to get air in and out the charger, and the air out WILL need to be cooled some how.

 

You could keep the original pulley, I like the clutch idea (I’d love one on mine), move the charger to the other end of the engine and drive it with another belt and shaft. Using an intermediate shaft and a careful selection of different sized pulleys you could get the charger speed you require. There was a supercharged Saxo that did something similar.

 

Or Biff off the PAS pump in favour of an electric one and mount the charger there, I did away with my PAS pump altogether, its not needed. Then get a nice small pulley make up for the charger.

 

Mad.

[M@tt 77]

Cheers Mad

 

Rad Clearance > Yes i've been thinking about the rad clearance (as gti-si also mentioned) and as you say i won't know till i get it in the car, but i'm hoping with a possible rejig of the bottom crossmember panel and some brackets i will hopeflly be able to get the rad sufficiently far forward to leave it enough space (crosses fingers and toes ).

 

Belt Wrap > Do you think with my pulley design in the last pic (green dotted line etc) the belt wrap will be sufficient? its covering at least half of it now

 

Cooling > I'm planning on using a 2wd Cossie intercooler under the slam panel as per my turbo CTI project so a rough plan in my head is for it to come out of the SC and go up the driver side of the engine behind the radiator and into the intercooler. Then come out of the intercooler and do a nice 180 degree U-turn straight into the throttle body. The inlet plenum runners will proabably need to be shortened though to give some clearance beween the plenum and the I/C

 

I think moving the SC sounds like a nice idea but i think will brings its own set of different problems (& cost )

Edited August 26, 2009 by M@tt

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

What about mounting the charger upside down... Might make it easier to get the air out, as there is nothing else below it.

 

The advice I was given was you want at least 180deg of rap.

 

When doing these things, the more ideas the better, as you can get focused on one idea which may not be the best. I never try to say should do it like this, more have you thought about maybe doing this.

 

Have a look how I mounted my charge cooler rad, you might be able to do it for your main rad. This would enable you to put the charge cooler behind the grill.

 

Would moving the charger be more cost than getting the charger modified and a smaller pulley made up...

 

If you want any pictures of what I did let me know... MSN or PM me.

 

Mad.

[M@tt 77]

brilliant cheers mad

 

yeah i know exactly what you mean, i get an idea in my head thinking that it's the best way to to do things and tend to be a bit blinkered about other possible solutions!! every suggestion is very much welcomed though as sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees Although there's always the balance/payoff between what you can do yourself/pay someone else to do/ease of doing and cost and its a permanent juggling act between those

 

I do like that idea of mounting it upside down though! I'll have a look at that. It could have an additional benefit that as the pulley is offset , with it upside down it moves it further from the engine body meaning more contact with the belt coming down from the PAS pump and also creates more room for the additional idler pulley which could mean even more belt wrap round the SC pulley!! Only possible downside is the outlet pipe may hang lower than the sump giving road/speedbump clearance issues depending on how high i can get the SC to sit

Edited August 26, 2009 by M@tt

[allanallen 528 2 Cars]

get the engine in the car old boy I think you may have more problems than just the rad being in the way, I looks to me like the charger will sit just behind the front valance and be quite high up making rad chaice very difficult. I think you'll need to alter the bottom of the headlight panel aswell to get it in. Just my two pence mind.

 

With your current pulley set-up I rekon you'll make 10psi+ so you may need to look into making some throttle body reducers like the lynx kit uses as it'll be much easier than getting lots of different size pulleys made up.Perhaps a little early to start thinking about that though.

 

If you want the front end of a 205 bringing up to fit the engine into and have a faff with just let me know. I can soon chop one in half and drag it up in the 'ute'.

 

no baby yet??

[welshpug 1,621]

having though about it, then looked for some pictures to confirm my thoughts.

 

no chance it'll fit down there!

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...87934&st=10

[taylorspug 7]

Having done a very similar belt setup when doing a GTI6 205 with aircon, the rad and bottom hose will be the biggest problem fitting that in, as others have mentioned. I got around it by re-routing the belt and taking apart the auto tensioner and reversing the polarity of it. Be wary when taking it apart though, the spring is VERY strong, the bloody thing will whip round and try and take your head off if you arent careful!

 

Basically i ended up getting rid of that long belt run up the front of the engine and looping it back in towards the engine as it came off the aircon pump (in your case charger). Also needed a belt with one less rib to miss the cambelt cover where it was coming off the crank pulley at a different angle and wasnt running in the recessed part anymore.

[M@tt 77]

twatty twat twat bollocks f*** s*it arse!!!

 

your right WP (& eveyone else)

 

just been out to measure the gap between the sump mounting lugs and the back of the valvance and it's ~16cm

 

 

Measuring the SC its 22cm wide and just short of 15cm deep so theres definitely not going to be space for it there, so it looks like its going to need to go where the PAS pump is currently instead. That means either a) making a custom mount similar to how allans done his b ) chop down the existing top mount c) find a non pas mount which might have a bit more room

 

onwards and upwards as they say!!

Edited August 26, 2009 by M@tt

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

Dare I say it, grow some arms and ditch the PAS? You've driven my car and its not overly heavy when moving even with a plate diff.

[M@tt 77]

aye well when you have guns the size of mine PAS isn't really needed anyway it's just a little luxury i enjoy

 

either way i can either put the PAS pump down on the sump if necessary or fit an electric pump off a saxo as has been suggested

 

no baby yet??

not yet, the little bugger was due today so i guess we have about 3 hours till he becomes overdue

Edited August 26, 2009 by M@tt

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

 

 

^ M@tt

 

 

LOL

[welshpug 1,621]

PMSL

 

mind you I'm skinnier than MrMuscle and have no issues with manual steering

Edited August 26, 2009 by welshpug

[madspikes 41 1 Cars]

You expect to get this car on the road when your having baby VERY soon! Never going to happen!

 

Mad

[M@tt 77]

2 weeks off, 2 hour gaps between feeds whilst he sleeps, loads of time!!

[M@tt 77]

I've been having a trawl of servicebox for some diagrams.

 

Am i right in thinking that any of the XU10 alternator/engine bracket setups will bolt to the GTI6 block? also will any others fit ie XU9?? XU7 or are the bolt patterns different?

 

Before going down the route of making a completely new braket i thought it 'd look to see if there was an existing one that had space where the PAS pump was but that i could make a bracket for he SC to mount onto and attach it to that but there seems to be quite a lot of bracket options!! I #think# maybe the best option would be to use the XU10 Non Pas but with aircon bracket option as this would allow me to mount the pas pump where the aircon would usually go.

 

TOP MOUNTS

XU10J2-4

 

XU7JP4

 

ALTERNATOR BRACKETS

XU10J2-4 NO PAS WITH AIRCON

 

XU10J2-4 WITH PAS NO AIRCON

 

XU10J2-4 WITH PAS WITH AIRCON

 

XU7 XU9 NO PAS NO AIRCON

 

XU7 NO PAS WITH AIRCON

 

XU7 WITH PAS NO AIRCON

 

XU7 WITH PAS WITH AIRCON

 

although some of the XU10J2-4 alternator brackets look like they're suppose to conenct to the XU7 engine mount? or is it just me? or do you think the faint in the backgrount top mount is just a general type illustration?

Edited August 26, 2009 by M@tt

[welshpug 1,621]

any XU10 iron block bits will fit, some of it you'll need to either trim the sump down or use a steel one, the XU7 and XU9 stuff wont fit.

 

the top arm for the XU7 is the same as the XU10 (No4 in the top two pics) but you can tell from the part numbers ;

[M@tt 77]

cheers WP

 

So do any of the XU10 setups run the PAS pump from down the bottom under the alternator as standard? it's a bit hard to picture the 3 setups altogether from the various diagrams?

[welshpug 1,621]

yeah, but only on the older engines, like the non-a/c S16/405 Mi16, and I think the 2.0 turbo. any later setups use the massive bracket with the PAS pump at the top.

 

they would be as pictures 1 and 3

[leon 1.9 0]

I've got the details below for the magnuson m62, which is built from the eaton:

 

The dimensions etc are here:

m62 dimensions (in inches) I would have thought they'll be exactly the same as the Eaton dimensions.

 

The same company (Magnuson) offer loads of charger parts for Eatons, they upgrade them and sell them as Magnuson chargers, they may well be able to provide off the shelf extended pulleys etc if you need one. Not sure on cost but US prices tend to be cheaper.

 

I'll come clean and admit I've been looking into doing a sc'd GTI6 XU10J4RS for a while now but it does look like its going to happen any time soon, so I may as well help however I can.

 

My main concern (and something I guess is a way off yet ) is how the transfer box will take the torque. The M45'd engines will probably act closer in nature to a centri charger like the Lynx kit, meaning you have a steadily building increase in extra power, I suspect with a larger m62 you might have to select a drive ratio so the charger will be giving a higher flow (and more boost/ pressure from resistance) at lower engine speeds, so the mid-range torque may well be asking a lot of the transfer box.

Edited August 27, 2009 by leon 1.9

[M@tt 77]

very mini update

 

I've not done a massive deal tbh but i thought i'd post up that in my quest for a solution to my supercharger pulley predicament i've managed to get a refurbished snout and pulley setup from an M62 charger from ebay USA.

 

It bolts straight on and will give me a M45 sized pulley and all for the princely sum of £83 delivered, which i'm pretty sure will be less than it would cost to manufacture a replacement solution to use with the existing snout.

 

heres a small pic, hopefully it will be here within the week and i can get the snouts swapped over and get some pics up