[engine_work] Project Sarty

[GLPoomobile 958]

Rich, you are without a doubt the biggest networking hound I've ever seen!

 

Regarding the wheels, Rich may say he doesn't care what we think about them, but I reckon the more we go on about it the more determined he is to keep them on just to wind everyone up Nonetheless, I won't rest until he gets the bloody things off and does the car justice. I think a midnight hijack somewhere half way across Europe may be called for.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Rich, you are without a doubt the biggest networking hound I've ever seen!

 

It works .

 

P.S. All forum members whose numbers I have in my phone should expect a text later tonight with a new mobile number for me. Due to the divorce and a joint mobile phone contract I've had to split it off. F*king women!!!!

 

*Waits*......

 

 

 

 

 

"Splitter!"

 

Oh yes. And this networking thing just kind of happens. I didn't plan on the guy in the CNC machining place - which I stopped at whilst I was roaming industrial estates in Macclesfield looking for a welder/fabricator - to give me a recommendation to find a guy called Ray, and then inaccurate road directions for his workshop that meant I ended up at JB Exhausts! Nor did I know Jonny would be a 205 fan.

 

Yes, I'm necky and am not afraid to ask; but they could've just thrown me out, and it has happened before believe me. You could say we make our own luck GLPoo, which throws your daft notion of Karma into the river, or does it?

 

Then - and you won't believe this, as it could really help the forum in a bulk-buy some time - a guy in a car parked outside JB beckons me over and shows me a laser cut 'showpiece flange' of amazing intricacy to show what his company can do. Apparently this laser cutting system can cut profiles in most metals AND laser in the holes too. This would be perfect for replacement OE or bespoke manifold flanges for inlet, exhaust, bodies, carbs and turbos, not to mention support brackets etc.

 

Anyway, if you look like you need help, you will find that out there are quite simply helpers and non-helpers. It's that simple in my opinion. When I find helpers, I spot them and do two things: I see what I can ever do for them (even if it's just cross their palm with silver) and/or make them feel really good about them helping me, as 90% of the time that's all the genuine helpers want, to feel valued and appreciated.

 

I'm a helper; try me.

Edited October 30, 2008 by DrSarty

[base-1 17]

Wise words! /\

 

Maybe next week.

 

Eeeeeexcellent

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

I seem to be haemorraging money again; and it always seems to be going out in £60 chunks. Never mind, it's fun.

 

Well here's the newly modified inlet manifold, ready for the second/primary set of injectors. Remember the original injectors in the R1 throttle bodies will now become stage 2. I like it a lot.

 

 

 

 

Guy (Pronta) had this made from mild steel, and it cost....about £10. JB Exhausts in Macclesfield were/are outstanding, adding the bosses, ridges on the runners and making brackets to support the original GTI6 fuel rail, already at the correct distance, based on cleverly measuring the spacing on the '6 inlet I gave them as a guide, originally just for the injector mounting holes.

 

It's all tasty work, and will look 'the dogs' when it's all powder coated black.

 

I've obtained a replacement Bosch lambda probe (as mine failed late-on at Emerald, and they had to take readings from a probe they positioned at the tail pipe) from Graham Goode in Leicester at the eleventh hour. You just ask for Innovate part no. 3737, although I do have the Bosch part number too. I would've got it from Mocon in Chelmsford who advertise it for £50, but they'd sold their last one this morning. The best alternative price I found was £89. What a bummer the original probe failing, after only few hours of running! I think the burst hose sprayed water into the Innovate connector which may have shorted the sensor/probe. Well gutted.

 

Anyway. New clutch cable and battery goes in on Sunday, together with the new Yamaha OE TB joiners on the 8up injected inlet manifold, which will also get a support bracket.

 

It ain't over yet, but it should be just getting better and better.

 

P.S. I had lunch today with Pip470, who's a crackin' fella, at the Honey Bee PH near Manchester airport. We talked shop, the Euro trip, and I spotted an immaculate P reg Alfa GTV languishing (read: collecting moss and looking sad with 2 flat tyres) in the car park, which I guessed was the land lord's. After chatting to him, I'm preparing to liberate it from his car park for £75. It has a perfect full leather interior, a fine engine and mint body work and wheels; just a poorly gearbox. The window regulators go on eBay for £40, so I think I'll make some money back. What am I like!?!

Edited October 31, 2008 by DrSarty

[pronta 1]

It has been said that one cannot consider oneself a true petrol head till you've owned and alfa.

 

I had two suds.

 

 

The bosses look 'mint' rich.

 

I look forward to getting it all going sunday when I get back from karting.

 

Good job.

 

BTW. if you bring an alfa to the house I'm sorry i already have one rusting thing in the corner I cant have two !! (she will string me up and god knows how youll fare)

 

see ya sunday boyo.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Well here's the newly modified inlet manifold, ready for the second/primary set of injectors. Remember the original injectors in the R1 throttle bodies will now become stage 2. I like it a lot.

 

Will not the kinda steep transition / angle change towards the head flange be hurting power? At least it doesn't seem to be as smooth as I would like

Just my thoughts though

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Will not the kinda steep transition / angle change towards the head flange be hurting power? At least it doesn't seem to be as smooth as I would like

Just my thoughts though

 

You could be very right my friend. It's what Dave at Emerald was eluding to, but I ought to give Pronta's manifold a chance. The angle isn't so bad, but it's not exactly a smooth curve.

 

We'll see. I'm prepared to change it if I have to.

 

Pronta> If I do get the Alfa GTV, it'll be moved 8 miles to the ex-wife's gaff here in Macclesfield and unceremonioously broken up.

 

Roll on Sunday (tomorrow) .

Edited November 1, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,683]

I know it's more money, but Sandy/Colin's inlets seem to be the best throttle body inlet out there that gets a decent length tract into a pug engine bay.

 

would be interesting to see what exaclty the difference would be.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

I know it's more money, but Sandy/Colin's inlets seem to be the best throttle body inlet out there that gets a decent length tract into a pug engine bay.

 

Would be interesting to see what exaclty the difference would be.

 

Yep. I've seen them and been offered them (with the wait of course), and am standing by to take the plunge. It would be nice if I could get one from Sandy/Colin to try in comparison anyhow.

 

As you know, Pronta did a lot of this whilst I was away, and we ought to give this inlet a chance. However if we learn that the inlet is restricting the engine, then we'll change it; it would be wrong not to.

 

AND BEFORE I FORGET: It's JP Exhausts in Macclesfield (not JB), who are wizard fabricators.

Edited November 1, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,683]

indeed, looks to be a well made piece of kit, liking the PCL air fitting

 

re-GTV, if its in decent condition I may know someone that would be interested in it whole, how poorly is the gearbox?

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

indeed, looks to be a well made piece of kit, liking the PCL air fitting

 

re-GTV, if its in decent condition I may know someone that would be interested in it whole, how poorly is the gearbox?

 

Thanks M. It is extremely well made, and I have to say I'm rather surprised that the shape would be having that much effect, but then I've no experience of air flow through ports, runners and manifolds. I must assume that as so many more experienced people are commenting, and as standard runners are either dead straight or gently curved, then it really could be important to performance. I'm certainly learning a lot anyway.

 

Here are the pictures of the GTV. It is in immaculate nick, but the gearbox has lost 2 ratios and I believe is a rebuild/write-off. Otherwise it's sound; not a scratch or ding anywhere and the wheels aren't kerbed either. Lovely looking motor too.

 

 

Would want £250, sold as seen & collected.

[pip470 61]

All good stuff Rich, How did you get on with the alfa? Did you collect it/have any time to play with it? As for the manifold, I completly understand why you are doing it. The fact that you made you're engine work on your manifold is a great achievement and I like the fact that you are going to great lengths to try and improve and also to test/analyse the improvements (we hope !!)/modifications. Its all very exciting and a great Learning experiance. I never liked theory lessons in school and learned 100 times more from the practicle sessions.

 

Thanks for the kind words earlier, I think your a credit to the forum for bringing so many of the forum users together in the countless meets and hairbrained ideas you have come up with. Bring on eurotrip.

 

Phill

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

over 25,000 views!

 

 

Today's been very busy. I feel so crap that the car's spent all this time being prep'd and even rolling roaded but is still not really road ready, or even MOTd. But that's the point, not ready.

 

I replaced the clutch cable today and fitted the Renault Laguna splitter to help hide/protect the radiotor protruding nearly 2 inches below the valence line.

 

Even the clutch cable was an adventure, not least because of limited working space getting the cable up under the servo but it seems no two clutch cables are the same, making each fitment an adventure.

 

I admit I'm not buying Peugeot original - need a bank loan for that - but all motor factors seem to sell different varieties no matter what I ask for such as 1988 1.6/1.9, or any other kind. They all have different lengths, end joints and intermediate fittings and bushes.

 

The clutch cable replacement was the last thing I needed, but then again it's better done now than on the Eurotrip.

 

The battery in the rear was the wrong type. I had a leisure battery, so replaced that and its terminals and also replaced a few more of my old black rubber engine hoses for nice new BBM red silicon hoses. All very nice.

 

I have to add 2 more pins into the ECU loom ready for the 2nd injector bank and associated remap (mmmmm....more torque) and recalibrate/set-up the replacement lambda probe.

 

What I really got done today was some serious tune-up engineering of the Sarty manifold. I'll post some pics tomorrow, but what we did was pure genius. Now all of the manifold runners line up perfectly with the R1 bodies (a pre-requisite you would've thought!) but now also mate up perfectly tightly with the OE Yamaha rubber joiners. It looks a different beast, and we even found an airleak near where runner 1 joins the manifold flange which we patched up. We braced the runners too and got it ready for a proper thrashing with 8 injectors instead of 4.

 

On this, Emerald's manual explains how a secondary injector bank - further upstream - can help supply pre-mixed fuel/air into the head at higher revs liberating more power. This will certainly eliminate the fuel drop-off as the inner - into the head - injectors will supply the low revs, instant response fuelling being supported by bank 2 in the bodies as revs and demand increases.

 

All of the engine bay fuel lines have been rerouted to feed the second rail and its pressure regulator, so we should be running again tomorrow (Wednesday 5th) ready for the MoT on Friday or Saturday.

 

Pics to follow & thanks for the kind words Pip. Believe you me, the times I've wished i just bought a Bogg Bros manifold are too numerous. However ultimately I've perciveered (sp?) and learnt loads in the process. If it works it'll be a mega victory and a source of pride. I think you'll see what I mean when I post the pictures. My manifold looks like the inner workings of the second Death Star!!!!

Edited November 5, 2008 by DrSarty

[GLPoomobile 958]

Can't wait for an on the road video. Nay, can't wait for an on the road passenger ride

 

Dunno if you saw me comment on this (randomly) in my car hire topic, but I saw a Youtube vid of a supercharged K20A Civic the other night. Your current set up is producing nearly as much torque as that thing! I know they have a reputation for lacking in torque, but with a supercharger bumping power up to circa 320bhp IIRC, I've got to say it makes your figures look pretty impressive

[Sandy 191]

Sorry I didn't reply to your text the other day Rich, I was trying to have a day off! You can't underestimate the importance of the inlet manifold design's effect on the bigger picture. A moderately ok design will usually only be 5-10% off the flow of a good one, but the effects in terms of driveability and response, even economy and starting can be much more noticeable. There are a heap of issues that need to be addressed, which is how I've ended up having my own designs made!

 

Any changes in direction have to be as gentle and smooth as possible to allow flow to stabilise before critical points, such as the throttle position or valve throats. Similarly, sharp edges in the direction of flow can badly interfere and steps in the opposite direction can mess with pulse tuning.

 

On the subject of how much better can a manifold be, the most dramatic one I've seen was MOS's QEP gaining 40bhp at 4500rpm changing from the Jenvey/Longman inlet to my "upside down" design. More recently (and more relevantly), this chap changed his Bike bodied 106 1600 from a regular hoses type inlet to our fixed design and here's the before and after graph, completely independently tested:

 

 

You can see the power lower down isn't much different, but the consistency of the delivery higher up is much improved.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Thanks for the reply Sandy. And YOU DO deserve a day off, so I hope you had a nice windy walk.

 

I suspect the comments of you and others are bang on, and whilst it's not a big problem, the angles at the top of my manifold - which is indeed at one of the critical points you mentioned - undoubtedly will have an effect at some point in the rev range.

 

I said I will stick this one out for a bit though, perhaps with a final curved pipe mod. But for now I know it works well for torque (if not for revs) and we need to see how it will perform with all of the improvements from yesterday's re-working along with the second, close-in injectors.

 

As mentioned, I'm enjoying the learning, and a side-by-side comparison with perhaps one of your/Eeyore's manifolds customised for my R1 bodies to similarly run 2 injector banks is something I'd like to do next year.

 

Thanks again Sandy. See you down south next time I'm in Okehampton I hope. Pasties on me this time.

Edited November 5, 2008 by DrSarty

[gizzmo 3 1 Cars]

nice to see you have the engine up and running rich my 2.2 projct should be complete within the next month ar so .hoping to get it booked at emerald before christmas i have the jenvey inlet so should get some comparrisons from that although it is running a bit more cam.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

nice to see you have the engine up and running rich my 2.2 projct should be complete within the next month ar so .hoping to get it booked at emerald before christmas i have the jenvey inlet so should get some comparrisons from that although it is running a bit more cam.

 

Good on ya Gizzmo; I reckon you'll do well, better than me in fact.

 

Anyway, here are the pics I promised. For me the main benefit of my approach has been the hands on learning. Today I was grinding off welds for 2 hours on the inlet manifold mk III, which as I mentioned looks similar to the workings of an Imperial space station.

 

New, additional injectors. 4 just ain't good enough. Cleaned and shiny.

 

 

"TK421! Why aren't you at your post?"

 

 

"I am guv. Give us a minute; I was having a crap. "

 

 

The injectors in the R1s aren't plugged in yet, but it fired up first time on the new injectors firing onto the backs of the valves - which was nice. Car will be MOTd with this set, then I'll plumb in the second loom lines to the other '6 injectors upstream in the bodies and the Emerald ECU and then hopefully take it back to Dave for some more fun and games. Hmmm, more torque, more power.......

 

BTW: The fuel system goes into the 106GTI fuel filter (where the jack was on the offside inner wing) and into the feed of the the R1 rail & its injectors firing into the bodies just after the butterflies. The R1 rail outlet - with its 2.8bar regulator then feeds the GTI6 rail's inlet and the primary injectors. This rail however has the standard GTI6 FPR which I think is at 3, maybe 3.2bar and is easily swappable if need be. The primary injection rail's outlet is the fuel return line to tank. Funky.

 

Another piccy

 

Edited November 5, 2008 by DrSarty

[jimistdt 1]

Lookin' freaking awesome, man!!

 

 

Good Luck with the MOT, keeping everything crossed for you old boy

[tom_m 0]

BTW: The fuel system goes into the 106GTI fuel filter (where the jack was on the offside inner wing) and into the feed of the the R1 rail & its injectors firing into the bodies just after the butterflies. The R1 rail outlet - with its 2.8bar regulator then feeds the GTI6 rail's inlet and the primary injectors. This rail however has the standard GTI6 FPR which I think is at 3, maybe 3.2bar and is easily swappable if need be. The primary injection rail's outlet is the fuel return line to tank. Funky.

 

i'm sure you've thought about this rich, but i'm good at playing devils advocate

 

are you sure about setting up the fuel rails in series? i know it can be an issue for high power subarus and a popular mod is converting them to parallel fuel rails. and will FPRs work in series like that? if the first one is producing 2.8 bar, how is the nest one going to produce a higher pressure?

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

As ever, that's good advice, and me counting on others knowing more than me.

 

Whilst parallel rails might be worth considering, I read (even on Emerald I think) that if fuel pressure needs to be increased, then a variable or higher FPR can be just plumbed in after the fitted/current one. I see it as just a choke or restriction; a pinch if you like.

 

The 2.8bar R1 regulator will actually end up pressured at the 3bar of the GTI6 one which is further down the series line, because it's 'pinch' on the line will back-up down the fuel feed. That makes sense to me, but I don't know if you agree or I have it figured right TBH. Think of it as just a restriction to flow; the 3bar one exerts more restriction/back pressure on the fuel which then translates down the rest of the system.

 

On that, remember Dave didn't see any need to increase the fuel pressure, which surprised Pronta and I at the RR, but this slight increase gives us some headroom we didn't have, purely because it holds up the flow and increases the pressure in the whole system.

 

On your comment Tom, surely the mod'd - and turbo charged - motors will be running higher flow injectors, pumps and regulators to cope with the demands of low CR, boosted engines, which means there are more demands on the fuel system, above and beyond my simple (!) needs?

[tom_m 0]

see i knew you'd have thought about it already!

[BusEngineer 7]

Ive spent the last week or so when iv a spare few minutes reading this and its fantastic, the car is a credit to your enthusiasm and effort, cannot fault you fella, gives me hope that ill manage to do what i want to mine.

 

On a side note, where are you living in the country fella, are you in Macclesfield because me and a few others off the forum are in Stoke and have a get together every now and again if your interested, let me know, would be nice to meet the man who is organising the Euro trip im signed up on

[pip470 61]

I love a good brain teaser, Rich, can you get hold of a couple of pressure gauges as ive thought of a few different outcomes with this and would love to see the deffinitive outcome, I'm going to stick my neck out with my own outcome

 

I think the pressure in the first line will be 2.9 bar, it has to be because its regulated at that, in the next line asuming your pump can supply 6.1 bar you will have 3.1 bar. Now the problem with this is that as soon as you start using the injectors, your pump will have a large demand trying to keep up those pressures.

 

This has really hurt my brain and completely scrambled it , i'm probably way off the mark but its been fun. I think a much simpler way would be just get rid of the r1 regulator and just use the gti 6 one. this should set all 8 injectors at the 3.1 bar. I know dave said the pressure was fine but he will be able to adjust the map to encompas the higher pressure. I'd love to see the outcome. Keep it up Rich

[Sandy 191]

It would be best to have free flow through the first rail really. Some base model 106s have "dummy" regulators in the fuel rail which you could use in the GTI6 one as the primary rail. I hate to say it but twin injectors will work much better with two smaller sets staged to operate together beyond the duty of the first set. ie two sets of XU7J4 injectors. The GTI6s are too big really to be effective in this way and switching from inner to outer creates some unwanted side effects.