[engine_work] Project Sarty

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

I've been reading this topic for the last week or so, and I, like many others am impressed with your enthusiasm and your drive to see this project through.

 

I'd seriously take on board Sandys advice on the injectors It will save you a small fortune now,rather than having to have it remapped again at a later date.

I had mine set up with injectors that turned out to be bigger than required (the outer ones anyway) and Dave set it up when mapping to switch over at 3500rpm. I know it was 3500 rpm because when cruising on the motorway at around 75-80ish mph which was also around 3500rpm according to my rev counter I had an annoying flat spot where the injectors were swapping so I had to drive either below 3500rpm or higher. Fuel consumption was also not very good and performance wasn't much better than with my twin 45's I had on previously

I spoke with Sandy and I suggested he had a look at it for me which he was more than happy to do.

He changed the injectors and staged them as he suggested above and remapped it.

Now its a blast to drive, super crisp throttle response, smooth and strong power delivery and fuel consumption is awesome. I don't need to chuck £20 of fuel in now to do a short trip !

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Thanks Daz C and in particular to my good buddy Sandy, with choice advice and expertise from his vast, practical experience.

 

We are up and running and now we're getting into new areas for me where this kind of advice from experience is invaluable.

 

So, going by what you say Sandy I will make the GTI 6 rail the primary fed rail and, either using the R1 FPR OR removing that and having an adjustable FPR located near my fuel filter, on the return line to the bulkhead.

 

Secondly, I assume the XU7J4 injectors are Bosch too and will size-for-size be simple swaps with my 6 injectors. On this - and I'm sorry this is a bone question - but what is an XU7J4 engine, cc, valves, from what etc please? EDIT: See below.

 

Finally, would it be 2 x 4 XU7JP4 injector sets, or inner GTI6 injectors and XU7s in the R1s staged to come in higher in the rev range and/or based on throttle input?

 

Sorry for the questions at this late stage, but we really are getting into the nitty gritty of fine tuning this engine so I can nail the fookin' crap out of it!!

 

I hope you post a reply Sandy for everyone's benefit, but I can give you a call to chat about this anyway.

 

EDIT: Good old Wikipedia. Now I know. See this. It's a 1.8 Pug lump, where there was a 16v version, hence the 'J4'. Xantia 1.8i seems to be a good source.

 

Little did I know, that XU5 meant 1.6, XU7 meant 1.8 (XU7JP4 being the 16vDOHC variant), XU9 meant 1.9 and therefore XU10 was 2.0litre. Cool.

Edited November 6, 2008 by DrSarty

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

Finally, would it be 2 x 4 XU7JP4 injector sets, or inner GTI6 injectors and XU7s in the R1s staged to come in higher in the rev range and/or based on throttle input?

 

Sorry for the questions at this late stage, but we really are getting into the nitty gritty of fine tuning this engine so I can nail the fookin' crap out of it!!

 

I hope you post a reply Sandy for everyone's benefit, but I can give you a call to chat about this anyway.

 

Sandy will no doubt confirm but I'm pretty sure it will be 2 x 4 XU7JP4 injector sets as he fitted 2 identical sets on my setup.

As for the staging I think (vague i know but hey, I'm learning aswell ) Sandy did mine based on throttle input this unlike the first setup I had eliminates any feeling of the transition. If that makes sense ? I would also hazard a guess that setting it up this way is the reason why I'm getting good fuel consumption which makes me smile even more.

 

If its of any use to you information wise - I'm using the standard Mi Fuel rail (inner rail) and FPR on mine and have had No issues with the 3 Bar of fuel it delivers,

[Matt Holley 11]

Sandy will no doubt confirm but I'm pretty sure it will be 2 x 4 XU7JP4 injector sets as he fitted 2 identical sets on my setup.

As for the staging I think (vague i know but hey, I'm learning aswell ) Sandy did mine based on throttle input this unlike the first setup I had eliminates any feeling of the transition. If that makes sense ? I would also hazard a guess that setting it up this way is the reason why I'm getting good fuel consumption which makes me smile even more.

 

If its of any use to you information wise - I'm using the standard Mi Fuel rail (inner rail) and FPR on mine and have had No issues with the 3 Bar of fuel it delivers,

 

Off topic but just read your sig and wondered if your 205 is the blue one that would have been at colins in october when I dropped mine off?

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Off topic but just read your sig and wondered if your 205 is the blue one that would have been at colins in october when I dropped mine off?

 

Daz's or mine? Mine's red.

Edited November 6, 2008 by DrSarty

[Matt Holley 11]

Daz's or mine? Mine's red.

 

Daz's, I know yours is red Ive been reading this topic for a while now Good work btw

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

Daz's, I know yours is red Ive been reading this topic for a while now Good work btw

 

Yes mine was the blue one Matt.

[Sandy 191]

Keep it as simple as possible!

 

What I'm suggesting is fitting one of the "blank" FPR capsules to the GTI6 rail so there's no restriction, which gets the feed first then supplies the outer rail, which controls pressure with the outer rail reg and return to tank.

 

So the route will be tank-pump-filter-GTI6 rail in-GTI6 rail out (via reg blank)-outer rail in-outer rail reg-outer rail out-return to tank.

 

It doesn't have to be the XU7J4 injectors, any high impedance circa 180cc ones will do, but I strongly advise using eight the same. Alfa Romeo 1.8TS ones (orange) I have used too. On Daz's I set the ECU not to make a forced switch, but to run both sets when the inners run out of duty. This way the ECU doesn't make a change, it simply brings the outers into play additionally as required to provide the necessary fuel delivery. This neatly matches when the air speed becomes high enough to carry the fuel from the outer injectors without significant drop-out. I'm glad Daz has been able to explain the difference getting this right makes. The compromises that have traditionally been accepted as part of running a modified engine can be all but eliminated with the right set up.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

 

Brilliant. Watch this space.

 

Sarty

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

Well that was an epic read! - loving the 'frankenstein-ness' of the engine build, hope all goes well/has gone well with the MOT today?

 

Certainly has given me much food for though regarding engine choice for mine - thread well and truly book-marked for all the invaluable reference material you've covered throughout the engine build.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Oh yes!

 

Fellas & lasses: I am one happy bunny. Not only do we have an MoT, but it's now performing like I imagined it would.

 

Don't forget that there's more to come when the staged injectors are correctly mapped in. But for now, with it running on just one set of inner GTI6 injectors with the new, improved inlet manifold, THIS THING F*CKING FLIES!!!

 

Coming down to earth, as I've been without this car even as a GTI, let alone my Mi16 (even after it's first mod with the copper head gasket and PeterT's stage I cam & the Maniflow), anything feels fast. I haven't done much driving in the last 12 months and have been without my 205 for going on 18 months, so my perceptions are perhaps slightly warped.

 

But....OMFG! I haven't even discovered when/if the cam comes in because I'm already going backwards in time; there seems to be an endless stream of power. I suspect the Emerald mapping day was almost a waste of money and Dave's time (although he earned his dough I can tell you), as frankly the car wasn't ready.

 

I'll get you some video soon, but the speedo needle (as I see it) moves quicker than the rev counter; it's ludicrous. It idles now all lumpy as the airleaks and poor initial TB installation have been rectified, and I believe the engine is beginning to behave how it should.

 

The bodies bark, and the exhaust roars and it pulls in fifth from walking pace. All dials and readings are good and the car hasn't lost any of its 'well screwed together' feel.

 

Frankly guys I'm delighted.

 

Again, thanks to all who have helped - particularly Pronta - and are still helping in the closing/fine tuning/fault-finding stages, as I am still after a set of LFY (engine code) Sagem black & blue PSA 1.8 16v injectors (x eight!!!) to make this monster almost perfect.

 

F*cking loving it troops!!!!!

Edited November 8, 2008 by DrSarty

[jimistdt 1]

Well done, Sarty!! You deserve it, mate.

 

 

Next stop Europe!!

 

[base-1 17]

Great news!

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Great news!

 

Thanks.

 

Got the 8 Sagem injectors now from the PSA 16v 1.8 engines, and am looking forward to not necessarily more power, but even better throttle response and fuel economy. I got 300miles out of a tank before the low level light came on, so I'm not overly disappointed as is.

 

2 forum members have been in her now; Chris1986 when I drove up & over to the 'Last of the Summer Wine' village of Holmfirth to get some tyres off him and piss about with minor niggling things underneath which turned out to be a severely ovalled nearside lower balljoint hub carrier fitting.

 

Then today, SorrentoPete, who saved the day and has transformed the car by letting me have - even taking it off his own car!!! - HIS perfectly servicable nearside stub axel pivot, which has firmed up the front of the car no end and crisped up the steering. It's literally transformed the car and the driving experience.

 

With the new tyres, Ferodo (front) & Mintex pads (rear), track rod ends, disks, brake bleed, engine & gearbox/plate diff oil change and tracking, she should be ready for some proper testing. Just need to find a big enough gap on the roads to open up the taps a little.

 

Pete cam over with his tools and trolley jack, but wasn't much use as Nico did all the work.

 

Nice bloke though. And Chris too, despite living in the middle of bleedin' nowhere!

 

 

Gotta love the kindness and generosity on this place. Superb willingness to help. Great.

Edited November 12, 2008 by DrSarty

[chris1986 1]

glad to see it's sorted turned out to be a bit of a late one,and i will say this, it definately feels a very (torquey) and powerfull engine and it's not run in yet. if you evr need help again it will be no probs. i take it the hand brake is working better now with the new discs?

i'm in the middle of no where but the roads are good ain't they.

[Peetypug 5]

i couldn't have done it without nico he'll no doubt be a great mechanic one day

 

it was good to meet you both and the car really does shift

 

glad i could help, i couldn't have left you driving a dangerous car. specially when you have the little man travelling in it!

 

as for the hub, well the engine will be coming out next week so i can get the exhaust sorted properly, so i dont need it right now

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

the roads are good ain't they?

 

Hell yes....just not in high winds, in the dark, the rain, with my boy in the car and the risk of a ball joint jumping out!

 

Being on those in the dry, and maybe the summer would be bleedin' awesome. That is certainly true.

 

And your help and commitment was outstanding. Thanks.

[chris1986 1]

it's just a shame we get about 3 hot days a year here though.

[kyepan 291]

I drove it!

[welshpug 1,678]

how goes it DrS?

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

how goes it DrS?

 

Like a bullet chief, and in any gear. If you come to meet us in Cardiff on Friday, then you too can have a go.

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

This is just duplicated from a Welsh meet thread to show how the car's behaving:

 

It was a really good weekend, because apart from seeing lots of forum peeps, it gave me a chance to stretch the 2.2's legs a little, which also included ironing out some silly niggles.

 

The car's now done over 1,000 miles since the rolling road on 27th October and hasn't missed a beat. We've had a driveshaft die & we've located (and cured) 3 sources of wheel wobble (after the driveshaft that is) and I am REALLY enjoying the car now. We've also firmed up plans to refine/improve the engine and performance. It's starting on the button, even from cold and continues to provide grinnage.

 

Motorway torque is an absolute riot. The exhaust pounds until 4,000rpm when it hits a sweet (read: quiet) spot, when we're at about 82-84 'random speed units'. As peak torque wasn't made until 4.7, it's sitting just at the beginning of the crest. Remember it's on a really long 1.9 box too, as, and I need to clarify this for all including myself, that THIS IS A ROAD CAR, which can also hold its own on a track or rally, as well as to and from the event.

 

This means it really lurches forward at these speeds, and so far we've sailed to over 120 of those mysterious units, which utterly destroyed a mark I VW Golf with two small bobble hats driving it along the slow lane near Bristol. It had a sticker on the rear window saying 'shut up, sit down and hold on'. The bobbles caught me up at my cruise and tried to race passed but failed. As I shot off and got slowed a little in the outside line by traffic, upon lift off over run a tail of flame leapt out at them, with a satisfying pop. The two barely visible bobble hats turned to look at each other momentarily and then they backed off.

 

I get a lot of knowing nods on the road (as I guess we all do), and it's nice to also know you're a little different, perhaps even wierd. And Nico absolutely loves it! At the pub in Cardiff, he wouldn't get out!

 

My much hated TSW wheels, apart from the rounded nearside stub axle pivot hole for the wishbone balljoint, were ultimately the cause of all major and minor wheel wobble, which I can report is now non-existant. There's a lesson here - apart from 'don't have TSW alloys' - in that many aftermarket, non bespoke alloys require a wheel spigot to act as an adaptor to mate the hole on the wheel to the centre of the hub. My car was missing the front left after we replaced the hub and didn't transfer the spigot, and likewise the rear left, after the rear beam rebuild (by Anthony) some time ago.

 

Also the front left wheel was out 25g on balance.

Edited December 2, 2008 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,678]

Like a bullet chief, and in any gear. If you come to meet us in Cardiff on Friday, then you too can have a go.

 

Thanks very much Rich, I only got to tickle it along under 3.5k, but you can feel the smooth shove it has even that low in the revs, a VERY smooth motor

 

Almost tempted to do something with the ZX 16v engine I have in the workshop!

[DrSarty 100 1 Cars]

Thanks Mierion (sp?). Do it!!! It's extremely addictive and I feel nourished ( ) from the whole project.

 

Next time we'll hoon for Wales. Colin & Sandy's inlet will be on it soon, remapped with more aggressive cams and the capability to wang in more fuel and air. Muwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

 

[GLPoomobile 958]

For a small, and satisfying moment, there, I thought you were going to say that you had ditched the TSWs after finding they were the cause of the wobble, and were now riding on the grey Speedlines that were mentioned the other day.

 

I'm assuming they are still there though Curses.

Edited December 2, 2008 by GLPoomobile