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taylorspug

[project] Silver 1.9 Gti 16v Project (now Gti-6)

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The Arch Bishop
All will become clear once i do a big update to my E30 race car thread in the next couple of weeks!

 

You bloody tease!

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taylorspug

Hello all.  Its thread update time.  Nearly 8 years have passed since the last post from me and its fair to say a great deal has changed in those years.  Marriage and kids being the main (and best) changes, along with home ownership and all those 'normal' things people tend to do.  I also have interests outside of cars now which tend to keep me busy during the year.  All of this has taken its toll on the poor 205 to say the least.  Its completely neglected now and in need of full recommissioning.  I haven't driven the car in 6 or 7 years due me realising it needed a good deal of work to get it back to full fitness and build it how I wanted it, or at least how I thought I wanted it.  Hence it was 'put away' with the intention of restoring it back to former glory when time allowed.  With hindsight this was a mistake...

 

Anyway before we delve into that lets just casually recap the whole project from start to finish.  I've actually read through the whole thread from start to finish before writing this, and it's a great read from my perspective as the first post was over 12 years ago, and the change in me in that time is enormous!  However the main reason is that most of the original pictures are long gone and I'm pretty sure I haven't got them.  So I feel a reasonably brief recap, using the pictures I do have will have to suffice.

 

I purchased the car in 2004 as a basically standard 1.9 8 valve:

 

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For all those who are more recent 205 enthusiasts- this is what £200 used to get you....  I'd put a different rear axle in it by this point and changed shocks/springs and a gearbox seal but thats about it.  Then things started moving along, the engine was removed and the enormous clean up operation started.

 

Before:

 

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After:

 

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The engine bay was then painted:

 

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The underneath of the car had some rust:

 

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Which was fixed along with a few other areas and then the whole thing was painted and lacquered:

 

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The first 16 valve engine fitted was a standard, low mileage Mi16 with nothing done to it other than belts and manifold re-angling:

 

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The body was then repaired where needed and painted, then the car fitted up with mostly all new parts including beam, wishbones, driveshaft, brakes, solid lines, braided hoses etc.  Anything that was deemed worn was replaced:

 

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Sorry its a bit light on pictures but this is actually all I seem to have for the entire rebuild of the car from start to finish!  The pictures were hosted somewhere else originally and the site disappeared- unfortunately I hadn't kept the originals due to lack of storage space (2004 computer problems).

 

The car was then used and enjoyed for a few years.  The Mi engine had a partial rebuild along with some uprated cams and a lightened flywheel- it ran reliably, sounded great and went pulled like a train.  I couldn't ask much more from a car that was at the time my daily driver.

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Roll on a few years and I decided to swap the engine for a standard Gti6.  Certain issues with the Mi were starting to trouble me- airflow meters that couldn't handle the uprated cams, and because of the use the car was getting oil surge was becoming a problem.  The GTi6 engine provided a solution to these problems and probably made the car a bit quicker on the road- although the 'magic' of the Mi was lost somewhat.

 

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In this time the car also had some further suspension and drivetrain upgrades.  After years of running an alloy block Mi I'd found the swap to GTi6 had made a noticeable difference to the general handling and balance of the car.  To try and counteract this and further improve things, 309 lower arms were fitted, along with ZX trailing arms, coilovers with 220lb springs and eccentric mounts (set to mid-way between caster and camber) , a 24mm rear ARB, and then the biggest change being a Tran-X plate LSD. Along with some lighter Compbrake 4 pots and belled discs the car was now much improved and I was finally happy with it again.  Then I fancied a bit more power, so ITBs were purchased and fitted:

 

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The whole lot was run on an Emerald K6 ECU and the engine itself was otherwise standard.  It made 155bhp ATW which is just shy of 190hp ATF.  The car was much faster now, felt better across the entire rev range and sounded great.  I was happy and proceeded to use the car for a couple of years in this state- thrashing it to within an inch of its life as much as I could!  The only other changes made in this time were replacement wheel bearings, an alloy lower pulley for the engine, a West Midlands Motorsport 2.4 turn quick rack, better Leda front coilovers paired with 275lb springs, and 24mm torsion bars for the 309 rear axle. 

 

After much use on road and track, as well as still being used as my daily at times, there were some problems starting to come to light with the limitations of the car itself due to the suspension it now had fitted.  The shell was noticeably flexing during high load cornering, which was setting up some very strange sensations and handling charachteristics in the car.  I had two options- either take some parts off the car and make it more streetable again to get back to a level where a standard shell was able to hold up to the loadings, or start to stiffen the shell up (ie a cage).  Decided the latter was my best bet for how I intended to use the car, so I purchased a Safety Devices C44 bolt in cage and fitted it whilst retaining as much of the interior as possible.  Also because of the suspension keeping myself in the seat was a huge problem, so the floor was modified to allow proper and safe fitment of bucket seats.  Because of how low and the position of the seats now the standard steering wheel also had to go in favour of a dished alcantara item.  Last on the list was some proper tyres- with all the kit now on the car it was wasted on regular road tyres, so I managed to get hold of six 7" ATS DTC Cups, in the correct stud pattern and offset, wrapped in new and nearly new Toyo R888.  Some of these pictures are a bit blurry so apologies for that.

 

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These were pretty much the last pictures of the car before it came off the road.  Naturally over the years it had slowly changed from a fast road car more towards an out and out track car.  After using the car in the spec as above for a few months, it was fairly hardcore and brutally quick down a typical British B road.  I loved it.  However the condition of the shell was still niggling at me- the damage caused by the years of flexing had taken its toll and needed addressing properly.  So I decided to take the car off the road and repair it properly when time and funds allowed.  More on that in my next post, along with some thoughts and experiences I have picked up along the way.

 

However for now lets consider the project recapped and definitely restarted.

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barneys66

Brilliant !!  Great to see an update after so many years - car looks / looked superb, so will be watching the rebirth with interest.

 

Oh, and £200...!?!?! :o:lol:

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wicked

That's a nice ride! Love the wheels... but didn't they rub the arches with 309 axle and semi's??

 

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Telf

very nice

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JamPug

Super cool car ! 

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taylorspug
On 20/01/2018 at 9:11 PM, barneys66 said:

Brilliant !!  Great to see an update after so many years - car looks / looked superb, so will be watching the rebirth with interest.

 

Oh, and £200...!?!?! :o:lol:

Thanks for the comment.  Tbh I wasn't sure I was even going to update the topic but it seemed a shame not to.  I will put pictures up in the next post of what the car looked like when I finally got it back.....  Lets just say its not so nice now.  However back  then it did look good- with hindsight I should have just repaired it as best I could and continued to enjoy it- I'm not all that fussed about what it looks like anyway!

Tbh £200 wasn't even that cheap at the time- the phase 2 plastics that went in the car when I rebuilt it came from a complete running and driving 1600 GTi with some front end damage that I was given for free!

 

 

On 21/01/2018 at 10:20 AM, wicked said:

That's a nice ride! Love the wheels... but didn't they rub the arches with 309 axle and semi's??

 

Thanks, appreciate the comment.  I didn't have any arch rubbing issues no.  The plastic arches were probably a bit worn away already through the years of use which may have helped, but I didn't have any specific issues with those wheels.  One important factor in that is having an uprated bumpstop on the back.  When I ran the car with even new standard bumpstops years ago I used to get the wheel catching the back of the quarter panel even on a standard 1900 Speedline.  I then started running Powerflex bumpstops and I've not had a single issue since- even when the car had rear seats and 2 passengers in them.  I recommend them to people as they can save you from nasty damage to the quarter panel on a car with a 309 beam especially.  Also the rear height on the car isn't too low, plus with the 24mm torsion bars theres alot less movement than with a standard 20mm bar, or even the 21mm Partner bars they replaced.

 

Thanks for the comments from all.

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Alastairh

Good to see you still about mate. Car looks lovely. Did you sell the E30 shell?

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Leslie green

Looked a nice car , good luck with the resto 

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Anthony

As Al said - good to see that you're still about Dan and that the 205 will be getting some love after all this time - I remember it had been sat a while when I last saw it and that was a good few years back now!

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Alastairh

I remember a ring trip in this in '09/10? That was fun even on the local roads :D

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taylorspug
On 23/01/2018 at 9:06 PM, Alastairh said:

Good to see you still about mate. Car looks lovely. Did you sell the E30 shell?

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This E30 Al?  Still in my posession. ;)

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taylorspug
On 23/01/2018 at 9:31 PM, Leslie green said:

Looked a nice car , good luck with the resto 

Thanks- it was and will be again with any luck.

On 23/01/2018 at 10:02 PM, Anthony said:

As Al said - good to see that you're still about Dan and that the 205 will be getting some love after all this time - I remember it had been sat a while when I last saw it and that was a good few years back now!

Cheers Anthony, good to hear from you.  It has been a long hiatus thats for sure but I've been keeping my hand in with the odd conversion and rebuild for people.  In fact its probably spending all my time building cars for others that has kept me away from this for so long!  I probably lost the love for it a little if I'm honest too.  Yes regrettably its condition had no doubt only worsened since you last saw it.... Tbh if it wasn't for the sentimental value I would probably see it as something begging to be broken up- it was that bad when I got it back!

On 24/01/2018 at 9:10 PM, Alastairh said:

I remember a ring trip in this in '09/10? That was fun even on the local roads :D

That was a fun trip mate.  I'm fairly sure everyone wanted to arrive at a restaurant/get to the track/provide breakdown recovery as fast as it was humanly possible didn't they?! :D:lol::ph34r:  Good times they were.

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taylorspug

Onto the next stage- getting the car back and starting the long process of reccomision.  Since 2013 the car had been very kindly stored at a friends workshop, and although it had spent a large part of that time indoors, the last year or so it had been out in the open- understandable as he had plenty of cars of his own to fill his workshop with.  Whilst this isn't ideal it was made worse because over the years of sitting idle I had changed the tailgate for a slightly less bent/rotten one which had no glass in it.  Predictably the tarp that was used to cover it had split/leaked, so when I went to collect the car it was complete with an inch of water!  Getting the car home on the face of it wasn't going to solve this problem as my house had no garage!  To keep it secure I took the fence down and put it in the back garden.  Suffice to say I have now had a garage built in which to house the car!

 

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As you can see it was in a pretty tardy state.  When I'd stopped using the car I had sold the engine package complete with the throttle bodies and ecu/loom.  I knew I wanted to completely revise the engine setup, and what I already had worked so well as a package I thought it best to keep it together.  So thats why theres no engine in the pictures!  I had also started (5 or 6 years ago) to dig into the problems with the car itself and repair them.  At the time I was looking to do a nice restoration but make all of the upgrades look factory fitted and try and make it something that would be equally at home on a B-road or a trackday.  However time is a wonderful thing, and as the years went on I decided that was a terrible idea. 

 

I realised I'm not actually bothered about having a 205 to blast around in on the road.  The road is full of idiots and speed cameras waiting to spoil your day.  Plus I don't have time to blast around- cars are merely a thing that get me from A to B.  I'm also not a fan of track/road cars.  I've built or been a part of enough of them over the years to know they don't really work.  From my point of view you either end up with a half decent road car that is ok on track, but isn't quite hardcore enough to keep up or replicate that magic feel of an out and out track car.  Or you go the other way and get lured in to making the car better and better for the circuit, and before you know it its undriveable on the road.  Which it absolutely will be because its been built to go fast on a relatively flat and smooth track, rather than an average British B road which hasn't been resurfaced since people thought the earth was flat.  There seems to be this wistful idea many in the car world have about driving (circuit) race cars on the road...  If anyone ever gets the chance please try it so you can see how hilariously crap it is!

 

I also felt with the ideas I had before I was in danger of building a bit of a trailer queen that I would be scared to use.  This is not why I'm in to 205s.  I don't care about the values, or originality, or immaculate paintwork, or really anything that drives the scene with any classic car these days.  My 205 doesn't really make any sense to me unless I'm driving it as fast as I possibly can with no real regard for anything other than how much fun I'm having.  When I restored the car before it was merely done because during the engine conversion it was obviously in such poor condition that I felt I had to- and hence I have now come full circle on that one and am doing the same again.  However this time its going to be a bit different as I want to preserve the car but as an out and out track/race car.  I'm not planning on having the car road legal at all as I don't like the compromises that come with this.  More than happy to trailer it to where it needs to be.  The main thing I'm going to be trying to do is; by using all of my knowledge of 205s and engineering to assemble something that is relatively simple and effective, with a few clever ideas and some decent 'home build' engineering along the way.  The main thing the car must be is light and well balanced.  Due to personal preference mainly the engine will be a 2 litre 16v NA, which I will also build carefully to allow it to be broadly legal for competition use (dependant on class).  I'm well aware there are some truly fantastic 205s on this forum already being built and used in competition.  However I'm going to try and crack on with mine my own way with my own ideas and see what comes of it.

 

Anyway first off as a start to the work I did the standard issue 'lets build a racing car' thing and gutted all the carpets etc out of a very sodden car and dried it out for the first time in 18 months:

 

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I then looked to take stock of what I had with the car, what I could raid from my parts collection, and what work I was going to prioritise to strike a decent balance between getting the car up and running, and implementing some of the ideas I had in my head about things like the suspension design, stiffening the shell etc.  Unfortunately I'm not in a position either with time or finance to build with minimal compromise straight away- so certain things may have to go on the back burner for now and evolve with the car as time goes on.

 

The front suspension (or at least one part of it) was my first port of call.  I knew I wanted to make some reasonably decent geometry changes, and on the front some of these needed to be completed first for other things to fall into place.  More on that another day.

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taylorspug

First up on my list with this build was always going to be alterations needed to the shell.  It's the main bulk of the work on a race/track car and alot of it is work that was going to pay me to get done sooner, rather than leaving bits for the sake of building the car and being limited/compromised in the future.   I am going to stick with the Safety Devices cage currently fitted for obvious cost reasons, however there was still alot of work to do with stiffening the shell and front geometry changes.

 

My first port of call on the front end was a major geometry change in the form of increased caster angle.  It's a major limitation of a 205 which is being used seriously on track, as the camber gain as the front wheel turns is next to nothing, which generally means you need to run a much larger static camber to get to a sensible reading once the wheel is turned.  Caster angle (or positive caster at least) would leave me needing less static camber, which has obvious benefits for traction, braking and general straight line stability.  Ideally I was looking to get to around 5.5 to 6 degrees.  Firstly I tried the eccentric mounts already on the car turned to full caster, and with 2 of the bolts removed so they actually sat back as far as they could in the standard shock tower.  Measuring seemed to put this at around 3.5 to 4 degrees.

 

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This was not going to be enough, so this knowledge combined with also wanting to significantly strengthen the top mounting meant a total redesign.

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The top mounting platform itself is now 5mm thick.  This will strengthen the notoriously weak standard turret- essential for any competition car because of the higher loadings, but in this case it served a couple more purposes.

 

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Firstly as you can see the strut is set significantly further back now- with a bit of careful measuring I can say I've achieved my goal of 5.5 to 6 degrees.  The second extra purpose is to provide a strong and solid anchoring point for the top mount, which is now mounted on top of the strut tower in tension rather than compression.  This was done mostly for packaging reasons, it will allow more travel and damping height over the a conventionally mounted unit- essential for a track car with lower ride heights.  Obviously this puts enormous emphasis on the 6 studs and nuts which hold the top mount in- they are now supporting the weight of that corner and all compressive loadings that go through that shock absorber as they are now in tension.  The 'studs' are actually high tensile csk bolts, which have been welded into the plate.  I've done a bit of maths and bearing in mind there are 6 of them, they should support the car fine in anything other than a catastrophic situation.  Even then the car wouldn't be unsupported as the spring pan and spring cant get through the mounting plate.

 

The spherical top mounts themselves look like bespoke items- they are actually just the original eccentric ones turned down until they reached a concentric base circle, and then drilled for the mounting studs.  Not pictured because they weren't finished are the modified nuts with a location shoulder.  I took the opportunity during this process to modify the way everything located onto the shock piston shaft as there seemed to be some areas where the shaft wasn't fully located into the spherical joint, or the top spring pan.  No pictures of this, but it's as good as its going to get for now until I get rich enough to buy some Proflex/Penske/Reigers etc!

 

Following on from that as you can see in a couple of those photos I'd also started the long and arduous task of seam welding.  Anyone who has done this knows 205s are not the nicest cars to seam weld!  I'd also made some strengthening boxes for the join where the chassis leg meets the bulkhead.  Considering the subframe is mounted directly under this area it always seemed to me to be a prime candidate to flex/be strengthened.

 

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I'd also like to point out that at this point the car had no garage- so all of this work was done quite literally in my back garden...

 

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Next up is a bit of bracing to start tying the front end together as best as I can.

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Bakes100

Welding looks good, silly question but have you checked the bonnet closes? :ph34r:

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taylorspug

Thanks. Bonnet does close, even with all that thread hanging out of the shock spindle!  I had measured it before I did the work and knew it would be tight but do-able.  I will probably trim them down slightly for some extra clearance, or raise the back of the bonnet a touch in the fullness of time.

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allanallen

Love a good thread reserection! Always remember reading about your car and work you did on others cars when I joined back in 2006. 

Nice approach and work on the top mounts, castor is often overlooked on circuit builds, the difference 5 plus degrees makes is phenomenal though! 

 

Do do you have an old clio with a 20v turbo engine in it as well? I’m sure I remember you calling about adapting some hubs for it or roll centre adjusters or something?

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taylorspug

Hello Allan, good to hear from you and thanks for the comment.  Yes I think as far as resurrection threads go 7+ years is pretty solid!  I'm enjoying being back on the car to be honest- the project is further along than the current update and it is nice to have it filling some of my time.  I was thinking about all the work that I've passed through with 205s over the years the other day.  Its amazing how much changes in that time with regard to the work I'm doing then and now- the years of experience (good and bad) I think are absolutely essential to projects like this.  I have absolutely no urge to bolt on many posey shiny bits, instead all my time and enthusiasm is going into getting things like these top mounts right.  As you say the difference it makes is night and day- but its something only experience would tell you!  I think most people would say the average trackday or even race 205 handles well and is a good package- maybe those with a bit more experience would say otherwise....

 

Well remembered on the Clio too- I do indeed have a mk1 valver with a 1800 20v in it.  I did want a camber correction kit for it- i think you guys at Bridgecraft were doing a group buy on the Clio forum at the time.  Very nice piece of kit it was too!  However that project is currently in storage- no sooner had I spoken to you I was near enough evicted from my workshop at the time (turns out the land had been sold without anyone telling me and the other guys that rented units there) so I was forced to reassemble the front and rear suspension (it also has a turreted rear end), stick the engine in it and put the whole lot away.  I've seen it today funnily enough as I popped over where its being stored.  Needs selling really I think...:rolleyes:

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mmt

Really Nice build. Lots of inspiration. 

 

How are you plumbing the heater matrix? I am having trouble connecting the in and out of the matrix. Is one connected to the exp. Tank and the other to one of the pipes on the back of the engine??? Any help much appreciated. 

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taylorspug
1 minute ago, mmt said:

Really Nice build. Lots of inspiration. 

 

How are you plumbing the heater matrix? I am having trouble connecting the in and out of the matrix. Is one connected to the exp. Tank and the other to one of the pipes on the back of the engine??? Any help much appreciated. 

Thankyou.

 

Heater matrix depends on what engine you are using and mixing and matching parts to get it correct, but they should all be plumbed the same as standard in my view- top hose from the matrix down to the one of the outlets on the back of the block from the bottom hose, and then bottom hose from the matrix onto the back/side of the thermostat housing.  The main pipe from the expansion tank should also be connected to an outlet on the bottom hose union- it ensures the engine is supplied with coolant from its lowest level so all the air can be naturally find its way up towards the bleed points without getting trapped.  Hope this helps.

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mmt

Thanks. 

My engine is a gti6. 

I have 2 connections on the heater matrix in and out

1 connector on the thermostat housing

1 steel tube coming from the back of the block 

1 hose from the main out on the exp. tank.  

 

Should it all be connected AS follows:

top heater matrix to steel tube

bottom heater matrix to thermostat housing 

main exp. tank “t-ed” in with either top or bottom heater matrix??? Which is the better solution? 

 

Thanks a lot!

 

 

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taylorspug
4 hours ago, mmt said:

Thanks. 

My engine is a gti6. 

I have 2 connections on the heater matrix in and out

1 connector on the thermostat housing

1 steel tube coming from the back of the block 

1 hose from the main out on the exp. tank.  

 

Should it all be connected AS follows:

top heater matrix to steel tube

bottom heater matrix to thermostat housing 

main exp. tank “t-ed” in with either top or bottom heater matrix??? Which is the better solution? 

 

Thanks a lot!

 

 

Ok so for a Gti6 this is how I'd plumb it up.  Firstly remove the standard alloy water distribution block that the bottom hose and metal pipe connect to.  What you need is the plastic version of this with more outlets on it, 1336 G4 is the part number that springs to mind but I think you can find them on XUD9/other diesel 306 engines.  They look very similar to those found on standard Gti 8v engines but with an extra outlet for the metal water pipe.  You can now run the standard hose with the bleed screw in it from the top of the heater matrix down to one of the connections on this outlet, exactly the same as on an 8v.  You may need to make it a touch longer to clear the exhaust manifold.  The bottom heater matrix hose can go to the outlet on the Gti6 thermostat housing, again exactly as on the 8v.  Now the header tank feed hose you have 2 options.  Either run it down the bulkhead to one of the 2 remaining spare outlets on the bottom hose distribution block, exactly as it would be on an 8v.  Or if you want to use the metal water pipe connect it to that and run it down to the distribution block that way.  If you do this however I'd advise you to block off the small outlet from the metal pipe that runs into the back of the thermostat housing- when I had this still connected I was having some strange issues with system pressure and water bleeding out of the overflow.  

 

Basically just replicate the 8v water circuit and you can't go wrong.  In my opinion no hoses should need to be T'ed on a Gti6 conversion as there's simply no need for it. Also you will always end up with one spare outlet on the bottom hose distribution block, you can get a bung from Peugeot to block this off.  Depending on the water outlet you get, the bottom hose- radiator connection can sometimes be larger than a standard 205 bottom hose.  In my experience with a bit of WD40 it will go on though. I hope this helps you out a bit....

Edited by taylorspug
Added info

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