Mi Baffle Sump

[crf450 0 1 Cars]

Peter,can you post us any pics of this windage tray?

[petert 550]

Part no. is 1047 17. It's the same on both S16 and GTi6. Notice the two sumps are different however.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Part no. is 1047 17. It's the same on both S16 and GTi6. Notice the two sumps are different however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Also the XU10J4R (136bhp) engine has that vindagetray, as I got one on my new engine

 

Petert, do you mean that the baffled sump in combination with the windagetray is the solution to cure the oil-surge? I've also extended pump 15mm and is going to use the 15mm alloy-block spacer. Is it ok to use the sump-bolts from the alloy-block or do I need other bolts for the sump?

[Mandic 0]

Also the XU10J4R (136bhp) engine has that vindagetray, as I got one on my new engine

 

XU10J4TE has the same one as GTi6 as well

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Part no. is 1047 17. It's the same on both S16 and GTi6. Notice the two sumps are different however.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Martin, that is what I have in the garage, I was bringing it to FCS, but I read that you're not going anymore?

 

I bought the oil pump baffle and the windage tray a year or so ago but only fitted the oil pump baffle since I could see how the windage tray fitted and my mi16 sump as an aluminum baffle welded in that would interfere with it so I left it at the time.

 

Also those bits on there are pretty cheap for a dealer part; the oil pump baffle (which needs modifying to fit hte Mi16 sump btw) is less than £2, the windage tray about £10 and the baffle with trap door for the S16 sump is about £13.

[sorrentoaddict 1]

C_W, is the trap-door baffle you bought the plastic one, or the sheetmetal one ? The plastic one seems to be part nr. 1047.15.. Was yours same ref. nr. ?

 

As for the windage tray, on my MI engines I always use a self-fabricated radiused windage tray, that is twisted through the crossbars of the stiffening spacer plate. (I will post pics if you are interested, I will try to borrow a digi camera).

 

In conjunction with the 28 teeth oil pump drive, and a baffled sump, it works perfect so far. The engine has to be mechanically spot-on, as well,

and it is a MUST to replace the non-return valves in the head cam follower galleries every time you rebuild the unit.

 

 

cheers

 

 

alex

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

C_W, is the trap-door baffle you bought the plastic one, or the sheetmetal one ?  The plastic one seems to be part nr. 1047.15..  Was yours same ref. nr. ?

 

As for the windage tray, on my MI engines I always use a self-fabricated radiused windage tray, that is twisted through the crossbars of the stiffening spacer plate.  (I will post pics if you are interested, I will try to borrow a digi camera).

 

In conjunction with the 28 teeth oil pump drive, and a baffled sump, it works perfect so far.  The engine has to be mechanically spot-on, as well,

and it is a MUST to replace the non-return valves in the head cam follower galleries every time you rebuild the unit.

cheers

alex

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I didn't actually buy the S16 baffle with trap door since I already had an alloy baffle welded in to my sump; but the trapdoor baffle for the S16 I assumed would best fit a ti sump?

[sorrentoaddict 1]

no, it doesn't fit so close - there is a marked difference in the bottom and

in the height.

 

the metal version might be easily modified, however - the plastic one is very tricky shaped and IMO it is a joke from reliability point of view...

 

anyway, it is dead easy to fabricate one.

[evouk 0]

Looks like i havent solved my problem, it got better but on hard right then left chicanes the warninglight flashes on. Sounds like i will need to improve the sump baffles.

 

Thinking of a steel one with extra plates welded in.

[evouk 0]

Would you reccomend a Trap door type fitment and an oil pump pick up baffle?

[Rik 0]

After looking at this thread, i've noticed there was no decision that was made as to what was "best to have"!

 

I didn't wanna start a new thread as its probably been discussed somewhere (not here), but i'm confused.

 

I thought it was necessary for the crank to pass through part of the oil within the sump, 'no'?

If so what needs to be done to actually fit the windage tray etc?

As you've probably guessed i dont have any knowledge of sump spacer plate dimensions/thickness'.

But what i do know is that if a bigger spacer was used then the oil pump pickup would need to be lowered to pick up the oil up, 'correct'?

 

Which now leads on to my final question (2 infact) -

 

'How do you know how much oil to put in the engine?'

 

'how would i know if the windage tray was going to foul the crank?'

 

any help is appreciated as i'm on with fabricatiing my own soon.

[Guest Jimmy_vRS]

After looking at this thread, i've noticed there was no decision that was made as to what was "best to have"!

 

I didn't wanna start a new thread as its probably been discussed somewhere (not here), but i'm confused.

 

I thought it was necessary for the crank to pass through part of the oil within the sump, 'no'?

If so what needs to be done to actually fit the windage tray etc?

As you've probably guessed i dont have any knowledge of sump spacer plate dimensions/thickness'.

But what i do know is that if a bigger spacer was used then the oil pump pickup would need to be lowered to pick up the oil up, 'correct'?

 

Which now leads on to my final question (2 infact) -

 

'How do you know how much oil to put in the engine?'

 

'how would i know if the windage tray was going to foul the crank?'

 

any help is appreciated as i'm on with fabricatiing my own soon.

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Rik, if you get any further with this I'd be interested to know. I gave mine a full oil and filter change before Croft at the weekend and filled the car with the recommended amount of oil (can't remember the exact amount).

 

However, as this was the first time I'd been on track in the 205 I did experience on a handful of occasions during particularly hard cornering the 'STOP' light flicking on and off and a drop in oil pressure (on the gauge). I'm confident my tyres etc would give up long before I'd cause any permanent damage but as I plan to do more trackdays and improve the handling I'll need to consider the oil starvation issues a bit more.

[Rik 0]

Well look out for a thread i may start, i'm gonna wait for a response from some one in the know

 

i've got plenty of un answered questions on this subject

 

Rik

[Paintguy 0]

But what i do know is that if a bigger spacer was used then the oil pump pickup would need to be lowered to pick up the oil up, 'correct'?

I was throwing about ideas at FCS, whilst talking to evouk about oil surge, and thought of an idea. I don't know if it's even possible (clearance wise), or worthwhile doing, but it involved making a deeper 'well' in the sump, and extending the oil pick up into it:

 

 

A bit like that.

 

The 'well' would only hold a relatively small amount of oil, but could possibly be enough to stop short term starvation. And being relatively narrow and deep, compared to the sump which is wide and shallow, it would suffer minimal surge.

 

As I say, it might be totally unworkable, but a bit of brainstorming never did any harm

[Rik 0]

I've got plenty of ideas, but i dont fully understand and have never seen a straight answer as to exactly what causes the oil surge/starvation problem.

 

Perhaps someone could enlighten us so i could try and put some serious theory into play.

[Kitsune 0]

I was throwing about ideas at FCS, whilst talking to evouk about oil surge, and thought of an idea. I don't know if it's even possible (clearance wise), or worthwhile doing, but it involved making a deeper 'well' in the sump, and extending the oil pick up into it

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Would be a bit low to the ground though wouldnt it? Could you not make a sort of baffled well in any area of the sump or is space tight? Im another noobie when it comes to sumps and dimensions so just throwing ideas about.

[ecksstore 0]

The sump lies back at an angle so the well would need to be fitted to the rear lower corner of the sump rather than flat on the base of the sump.

 

Im not sure how close to the ground this would place the sump, maybe a sump guard would be required.

[nick 3]

Have alook at an old thread on oil surge that I started a while back, it's a very similar idea.

 

Nick

[willxs 0]

is it worth baffeling a sump if its just being used for road use?! obviously being a 205 it'll take the corners well... but bearing in mind its on a public road and not a track it wont be pushed as hard without putting other people at danger...

 

so bearing this in mind, think i should be alright without baffling the sump!?

[barney 0]

There are sump baffles like Ste has fitted to his 205 gti stock hatch race car at www.preptech.co.uk

 

Generally you won't need one for road. The preptech one was tried around donnington with oil just above minimum and didn't show any problems. Theres 3 205s racing with them now.

 

Oli

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

There are sump baffles like Ste has fitted to his 205 gti stock hatch race car at www.preptech.co.uk

 

Generally you won't need one for road. The preptech one was tried around donnington with oil just above minimum and didn't show any problems. Theres 3 205s racing with them now.

 

Oli

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are any of these Mi16s though? As the 8v doesn't tend to suffer from it on track compared to the Mi16.

[barney 0]

Yes so far all 1.6 8 valve cars. Are the Mi sumps steel or ally?

 

Oli

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Apparently all 405 Mi16s were alloy sumped, but it was 50:50 alloy and steel on the BX 16v Mi16 engines.

[Kev-G 1]

I think they just fitted whatever sumps were closest to hand - I've had 405's with steel sumps.

[Kitsune 0]

What car does the tin/steel sump come from that people refer to then? Is this the S16 sump or is it from an 8v?