Aftermarket Management

[Carbs4me 45]

Hello All,

 

This topic has probly been covered a million times before, ive done by searchs and done some research myself.

 

My needs for the ECU is to run a set of R1 Bike TB's

 

Is Omex the better choice?

 

The words are stay away from mega squirt...? What ecu would be recommend... Bare in mind the car cant be put striaght onto a rolling road as its a fresh build on the engine and apart from the pistons been over sized its completely standard but had all the machine work done so everything is like new.

 

My first intensions where to just get a set of ZX9R carbs, but i cant really be doin with the unreliablity and want better MPG!

 

Its a very dark area for me with TB's/carbs

 

Cheers,

 

Anthony

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

[stuck record on]

 

Find a local rolling road and mapper you are happy with. Take their advice on which ECU(s) they are happy to map and "get on" with. Buy accordingly.

 

[/stuck record off]

 

Personally I wouldn't touch a Megasquirt with a s*itty stick.

[Carbs4me 45]

They recommend Uni Chip... but the people who have gone there before say, the chips arnt worth what they ask for and arnt that great?

 

anyone else used one?

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

A Unichip is not a standalone mappable ECU. Find another (better) rolling road who knows what they are on with.

[Carbs4me 45]

Cheers for the info! i will let you know what another rolling road say.

 

Edit:

A random question while where on with it?

 

I read on the Oxem website something about your standard Mi16 injectors working on a TB is it true what the chances of that working with a set of bike carbs?

Edited May 21, 2012 by Carbs4me

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

Personally I wouldn't touch a Megasquirt with a s*itty stick.

 

here we go again

 

nowt wrong with megasquirt my friend, just takes a bit more effort

 

but each to their own, lets not get into it again

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

You cannot use injectors with carb's, you must use Bodies, The Omex 200 does ignition and the 600 and 710 does injection basically

But you will find most RR won;t touch Mega.... as it's DIY, I know my mapper doesn't even touch DIY installs of any type due to the amount of problems you get with them

[Anthony 1,000]

Stick with DTA, Omex or Emerald and you won't go too far wrong.

 

Every mapper will have their prefered choice, but chances are that any mapper that's worth their salt will be familiar with ECU's by the above three companies. There's other choices out there as well of course, but they're typically not as common/popular (here in the UK at least).

 

Megasquirt can work fine and there's plenty of success stories out there, but unless you're the sort that is happy to tinker at an electronic componant level it's probably worth discounting - certainly there's more than enough badly made or configured ones out there that many mappers won't touch them as Miles mentions, and the cost of buying one that's been professionally built by a reputatable company is broadly similar to that of a used "proper" ECU (or indeed, not far off the cost of a new DTA S40). I have nothing against Megasquirt and have built a couple in the past, but I would never recommend that others go down that route without sufficient competency and understanding of the sort of issues you're potentially letting yourself in for - too many people have bought them solely on the basis that they're cheap and regretted doing so.

 

Don't forget to add the cost of the wiring loom if you're not in a position to do that yourself, as it's something that is often overlooked.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

One other point, a second hand Omex/DTA/Emerald will also hold a good proportion of its value on the second hand market at a later date.

[welshpug 1,626]

not much more to add but echo Anthony and Tom's comments, you will need larger injectors than standard MI16 ones, gti6 are popular as they are very good spray pattern and flow enough for circa 240+ naturally aspirated and aren't expensive, well worthwhile getting a set cleaned before installing them.

 

I don't think you are far at all from Chipwizards

[petert 554]

I was surprised recently to hear of a race car tuner in Melbourne who up until now ONLY does Motec and Autronic has started doing Megasquirt. That's a big rap.

 

I was also surprised to learn in another thread that an Omex 600 can only do semi-sequential fuel and wasted spark ignition for approx. AUS$1090. For the same money, a Haltech Sprint 500 has the ability to do full sequential fuel and direct fire on a 4 cyl. ie it has four separate fuel outputs and four separate ignition outlets. It also has the advantage of being able to map the fuel by TPS, whilst at the same time, mapping the ignition by MAP. A must for big cam, N/A engines. Load points and RPM points are user definable. Fuel mapping by VE or injection times. In addition, it has thermofan and tacho outputs and two more user programmable outputs. Please tell me if I've got the value for money wrong?

Edited May 21, 2012 by petert

[Carbs4me 45]

You cannot use injectors with carb's, you must use Bodies, The Omex 200 does ignition and the 600 and 710 does injection basically

But you will find most RR won;t touch Mega.... as it's DIY, I know my mapper doesn't even touch DIY installs of any type due to the amount of problems you get with them

 

Yeah i ment TB's just not thought about what i was typing when i mentioned bike carbs at the end.

 

Thanks for the info guys was looking at the omex 710 but really upto 12 cyclinder dont think i need to go that far with it

 

I will check those wizards chips out and see what they recommend... and get myself some GTI-6 Injectors and see where it goes from there.

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

dont get me wrong i dont think i'll be using megasquirt on my next project but they really are not that bad for a diy job.

 

i had mine properly built for half the cost of an emerald.

 

so if you dont know what you are doing then stick to something that your mapper will use as said before

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

It's mostly been said above and many times before, but going back to your original post, it might not be a bad idea to really clarify something, particularly relating to your last line about 'dark area'!

 

There's also an important question first off, which is what engine is this for; you haven't said?

 

Carbs and individual throttle bodies (ITBs) do the same thing; they allow the addition of fuel in a controlled fashion to the incoming, clean air flow. (They also make a great induction noise )

 

Second question - are you wanting to use bike carbs or ITBs?

 

ITBs use fuel injectors, controlled by an engine management system/electronic control unit (ECU). Carbs use air pressure and valves to meter the flow of fuel.

 

Carbs or ITBs must be properly mounted to the cylinder head via inlet runners or manifold; by properly I mean firmly, ideally metal-to-metal, with no half-arse silicon joiner bodges with jubilee clips.

 

ITBs, due to less moving parts (hardly any) and management via ECU give much more flexibility and are arguably more reliable. That said, carbs are reliable, especially bike carbs, and you can get excellent results; but it surely makes sense to use properly set up, optimised ITBs if you can afford it to stay modern and get the best results.

 

The overall inlet tract length, from the back of the inlet valve(s) to the mouth of the inlet horn/trumper/bell mouth/velocity stack (all correct terms), where the actual inlet entrance should be shrouded by an air filter/cleaner of some sort (socks NOT recommended), is critical to the power delivery of the engine, which ultimately will probably have an effect on the output figures/BHP and torque results.

 

ITBs can run multiple/staged injectors, basically an inner and outer set. Further out gives better fuel atomisation for power/torque, but public road/idle behaviour can suffer badly. Somewhere in the middle is best (like a Jenvey body) for a compromise, or the OE location or near to it, or OE plus an outer set which joins in based on the mapper's set up.

 

Advice - I (perhaps we) would recommend you get your body or carb physical set up sorted out first. Read up, get it matched to your engine and desired results, made and fitted properly.

 

As said many times, choose your ECU based on a relationship with a local, preferred mapper, who can take ownership of the problem with you.

 

I hope that clarifies the dark areas for you a little, and you perhaps do some forum homework reading and find some of the other (many) similar topics to understand and learn the most you can, as you will get the benefits.

 

EDIT (and reinforcing my last point) - Just read your last post and I can only stress again learning about this subject, consulting with a local, ECU supplying and engine mapping expert, and making a plan. You seem to be approaching it piece-meal, seeing how it goes, and I don't think you'll achieve the best you can that way.

Edited May 21, 2012 by DrSarty

[welshpug 1,626]

A DTA S40 will do spark+fuel, as will Omex 600, both only wasted spark+batch fire or semi sequential, not a big deal not being sequential, plenty of good big power engines running like it without issue.

 

Both circa £5-600 with loom plug.

Edited May 21, 2012 by welshpug

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

All no doubt correct Mei, but you may have introduced some more 'dark area', or should we call it 'dark matter'.

 

For the OP: (to perhaps keep this altogether)

 

* For ITBs you need 'fuel and spark' management really, to do a proper job. You could run them with a distributor, but why would you?

 

* Sequential fuel and/or ignition (spark) requires the ECU to have a camshaft position sensor as well as crank sensor, and means the injectors can fire singularly for the cylinder required, rather than as they do typically i.e. all together, which is called 'batch fire'. There appears to be no real gain in going sequential injection

 

* Sequential spark is firing just the spark plug for the cylinder ending its compression stroke. As per sequential fuelling there's no apparent gain from this.

 

* Wasted spark is standard, even on base models back to Fords, Vauxhalls and PSA (106/Saxo) in the 90s, and uses a twin coil which fires (typically) spark plugs 1+4 and 2+3 as separate alternating pairs. Only 1 of the sparks arrives in each fired pair to a cylinder ready for the power stroke, i.e. the other spark isn't used or is 'wasted'

 

I'm not going to type/explain any more as it's all been covered before, and I've already urged you to read up here and elsewhere and make an educated decision.

 

To keep it simple, most engine tuners/mappers will be able to supply you with a full kit, ECU, sensors, coil packs and ITBs and manifold if you need the latter. Alternatively, as advised, build up your ITBs, trumpets, air filter and manifold yourself, and then do the rest with your ECU supplier/mapper.

[Carbs4me 45]

Great post Drsarty

 

You have hit the nail on the head! Right firstly it is a 1.9 16v mi16... On the point "where im just seein how it goes" is exactly what im thinking... i dont know what gains im gunna have from it, and because ive never done a Mi16 conversion or a Carb or TB conversion... i have too many questions i have both ZX9R bike carbs and R1 TB's i cant be arsed with the messing about and rr test every what is it... 2,000 - 4,000 miles with carbs? i need this car to drive at least 21miles a day thats the jorney to work and back in a day. The miles clock up quite quickly with going out with friends pictures etc.....

 

And because its a rebuild engine... should i really be prepared for the Rolling road? or do they just make it run rough, untill the engines beds in?

 

Ive done lots of research on here before and theres alot of conflict between people gaining and loosing power with bike carbs... im looking for 200BHP at the most id be happy with a strong 180BHP so my expectations arnt massively increased from the standard power.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You'll see what gains to expect from reading the other projects and threads matey.

 

There will be differing results based on the different applications and set ups, i.e. some will have aggressive cams that give a higher peak power but perhaps a hollow mid-range.

 

As a rule of thumb, bodies, good manifold, ECU and mapping and decent install will get you up to 180bhp. Well chosen cam(s) and exhaust manifold might not increase peak, depending on the cam(s), but may improve the torque delivery; on the other hand they may take you to 190-200bhp. Raising the compression ratio with all of the above will almost certainly see 200bhp.

 

Word of warning though - and to answer your comment on rolling roads - each mapping session may cost £300, so it's best to do it once or rarely. I don't quite get your comment on carbs, but to help explain, the rolling road is used to represent a real road and deliver different engine load conditions to map the engine; it's not just a running in or peak power tester. And also true road mapping in addition to RR mapping is strongly advised with your mapper plugged in and sat next to you.

 

Finally, add this up and be prepared - £300 map / £600 ECU / £150 air filter set up / £200-£500 inlet manifold / £100 cleaned GTI6 injectors / £200-£300 loom / £100-£500 install and miscellaneous such as coil pack. This list doesn't include any aftermarket cams or exhaust system.

 

It's an expensive game to chase horses, when a healthy 160bhp Mi16 is more than enough.

[Carbs4me 45]

Well ive heard carbs need setting up again after so many miles! if this is what you ment.

 

Well i actually have high lift cams not sure what duration they are! i have a bog brothers manifold which will need the rubber hoses i also have a self made stablizer for it to stop them from falling off the hoses, most of the performance stuff where already on the engine when i got it and was apprently running 200BHP before it cracked the old block i have a super light flywheel which is apprently needed for carbs (i can pick this up with my little finger) also got a exhaust manifold with the engine that looks the same as a 1.9 8v exhaust manifold (same size same shape) just larger ports i think! all this was fitted to the engine before hand.

 

Its just loom, ECU, injectors and the misc stuff.... the coil pack is already there or at least its the standard one bolted to the inner wing. or at least this is what i think!

 

I can install everything myself... its just another learning curve for myself to venture on!

 

Its hard for me to understand or explain something im not 100% clued up on, and my understanding of things without having a go myself is terrible.

 

Ive nearly brought afew management systems from here acouple of times.

[Anthony 1,000]

i have a super light flywheel which is apprently needed for carbs (i can pick this up with my little finger)

Check that it hasn't had the timing teeth machined off, as that throws a spanner in the works as that is what the ECU uses to determine engine speed/position. Not needed with carbs and a dizzy, hence they are often machined off to save weight.

 

If they have, you can run an external timing wheel on the end fo the crank pulley so it's not the end of the world.

 

(and no, you don't need a light flywheel for carbs - so not sure why you were told that?)

[Carbs4me 45]

Just the guy i bought it off told me. all the teeth are there, apart form the obvisous couple that the crank sensor needs to find its position.

 

He offered me his blue 205 on 48 TB's running 230bhp with a spun shell for £1600 turned him down as i didnt need another car to worry about.

 

I got all of the above for £200 ive just spent a fortune on getting everything machined.

[Carbs4me 45]

Here is a picture of the flywheel in the garage.

 

[petert 554]

There appears to be no real gain in going sequential injection

 

* Sequential spark is firing just the spark plug for the cylinder ending its compression stroke. As per sequential fuelling there's no apparent gain from this.

 

* Wasted spark is standard, even on base models back to Fords, Vauxhalls and PSA (106/Saxo) in the 90s, and uses a twin coil which fires (typically) spark plugs 1+4 and 2+3 as separate alternating pairs. Only 1 of the sparks arrives in each fired pair to a cylinder ready for the power stroke, i.e. the other spark isn't used or is 'wasted'

 

Some myths here. Why does Motec & Autronic offer sequential fuel solutions only? Sure, at maximum hp, when duty cycle is at its highest, the injectors will be open for almost the entire engine cycle. Therefore there is little gain for multipoint/batch vs sequential in terms of hp. However, the gains in sequential come in torque. The stuff that slings you out of a corner.

 

In wasted spark, only one of the cylinders will get the correct polarity, as current flows from one plug to the other. So direct fire will see an improvement in spark.

 

A GTi6 is sequential fuel & direct fire. Why would you go backwards?

 

I'm still amazed at how far the UK is behind in aftermarket ECU's. For example, the Omex 600 is equivalent to a Haltech E6S that sold new in '95-96 and ran on MS-DOS.

[welshpug 1,626]

maybe because nobody has yet illustrated clearly the benefits?

 

i.e repeatable results from an engine dyno for example.

Edited May 21, 2012 by welshpug

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Looks like a TTV flywheel, Make sure you check the age of it if you can as the early one strip the teeth of the ring gear and the clutch face can also not be flat

 

From having done a MI16 from Some type of bike carb with MegaSquirt back to a Dizzy the engine believe it or not made more power and was allot more flexable, Mind I have no idea what the Megaqsuirt box was like bar the owner spent a fair amount trying to get it mapped so much so the engine spun a shell

 

Finally the Bogg manifolds are pretty poor, Generally unequal length inlet tubes and badly finished, Well the dozen I have seen have been like this which does not help the overall power figures