Building Bottom Arms With Rose Joints - If We All Chip In Money Saved

[205_sunderland 4]

i rang a company called springfix today and got a quote on some joints of there own which hr stated would be better quality (of course he would say that) or same as aurora joints, for 3/4 x 3/4 it was £38 quid each and they were german brand. He did state there meant for engineering purposes but most likely all of them are and are not intended for motorsport. loads ratings were as follows

 

dynamic load

 

2.53 tonnes

 

static load

 

6.3 tonnes

 

also called another company shaws motorsport are looking into pricing options for me as we speak and awaiting prices etc

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

Utter crap, engineering rose joints are for low static loading on machine control linkages, not to have the dynamic load of a car cornering placed on them.

 

Without being rude it sounds like you don't really grasp (a) the possible forces involved and ( the potential ramifications if one of these joints breaks.

[tri_longer 25]

We all want to pay the least amount possible, but it seems clear that there are a lot of engineering people on here who are all telling you the same thing that you cannot scrimp on these parts.

 

Hypothetically speaking Tom, how much would you charge to make a set of rose jointed wishbones to the correct standard using the correct parts, assuming the customer provided you with a set of arms to work with.

[Cameron 16]

The rod end is the part you absolutely need to spend money on! Stop messing about trying to get the cheapest part possible, no offence but it's a fool's errand and all you're doing at the moment is reducing people's confidence in your idea.

[rallyeash 155]

colins setup is less than you'd think, ive been in contact with him recently regarding it and my car is most likely going to have it done over the winter.

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

Hypothetically speaking Tom, how much would you charge to make a set of rose jointed wishbones to the correct standard using the correct parts, assuming the customer provided you with a set of arms to work with.

 

Personally I would not want to make these arms for a third party. In actual fact I've recently bought a second hand set Miles was selling, £175 delivered and I certainly could not buy the parts needed let alone make them myself for that, and I have all the kit to do so myself, bandsaw, lathe, mill, TIG and 4 friendly coded welders who would do the welding for me as a favour.

[SurGie 54]

So whats the real reason for wanting these type of wishbones made up ?

 

Im sure you can get enough camber from adjustable top mounts and 309 bones, at the end of the day there is only so much camber that's drivable.

 

No matter how well they get welded, i still feel i could not trust them enough to use them. They would always be at the back of my mind when driving with them fitted. Then there's the amount of pot holes we currently have and the way the recent winters have been and low amount of funds to mend them. If they were used for the roads that is.

 

I have read on other forums about usual wishbones breaking under load and that they now use these rose joint ones for more strength. Iv not heard of anyone on here having a wishbone break around the ball joint area

[Henry 1.9GTi 36]

I have only managed 1.5 deg negative with some cheap non slider eccentric mounts and 309 bones. The car rolls enough, compounded by the lowered wishbone geometry, to completely roll off this camber rendering the static amount absolutely useless. A proper revised setup like colins, or massive static camber, or stupidly stiff springs would be required to see the benifits of the camber thrust.

[Cameron 16]

I have 3deg negative with 309 wishbones and eccentric mounts set to 75% camber.

 

I think the reason rose jointed arms are popular is A - people think they need the camber adjustment, but more B - people (especially in rallying) need to have a BBJ that can be replaced without scrapping the entire arm. With B in mind, it's better to provide an arm that has a pressed-in spherical bearing rather than a rod end, as they're far cheaper and much stronger; the problem then comes from how you attach the required housing to the standard wishbone (hard), and how you design the housing to stop the spherical popping out (easy).

 

In response to SurGie's comments, it's a very popular misconception that wishbones are loaded heavily when hitting speed bumps or pot-holes, but this isn't actually the case. The loads from these situations are seen almost entirely by the strut (absorbed by the spring), the wishbone is free to pivot, remember, so it only acts as a tie-rod. It sees the greatest load (by a very long way) when you're braking hard on tarmac, since rod-ends are meant to be loaded in tension and compression rather than in bending, this puts a massive amount of stress on the threaded section and could quite easily bend or shear(!!) the rod end if you don't spec it properly!

 

To the OP - this is the reason for our concerns about you trying to spec cheap rod ends!

Edited July 7, 2011 by Cameron

[welshpug 1,623]

I wonder if Phill will do his 205 versions of these if enough people chip in and someone pops over with a subframe wishbones and ARB.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=126278&st=0&p=1138427&fromsearch=1entry1138427

[Rippthrough 98]

I'd say the greatest load is braking and hitting a pothole too

Or glancing off the side of a pothole/kerb...that can give some serious lateral acceleration!

 

^^Might do Mei, could do with a subframe I can chop up though.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Rippthrough

[tri_longer 25]

I wonder if Phill will do his 205 versions of these if enough people chip in and someone pops over with a subframe wishbones and ARB.

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=126278&st=0&p=1138427&fromsearch=1entry1138427

 

Now that looks like just the ticket, and the best bit is replacement 306 ball joints.

 

Phill, please start making these, you will be rewarded with a special place in heaven for your efforts.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I'd buy a set for deffinate, fed up of not being to get decent 309 wishbones.

[Rippthrough 98]

Now that looks like just the ticket, and the best bit is replacement 306 ball joints.

 

Phill, please start making these, you will be rewarded with a special place in heaven for your efforts.

 

What, having to fix God's 205 every other day?

 

I'm not sure that's heaven tbh!

[SurGie 54]

I never said the greatest load but its more loads than a flat track type of surface.

 

For rallying i agree they are worth it but for road use not worth the money tbh. You can get BBMs adjustable top mounts and im sure they would be enough for road track use with 309 bones cheap or not. Miles has or is using cheap 309 bones now from reading one post he wrote recently.

 

I bought those so called 'not fit for purpose ones' from a well known seller/member on this forum late last year, i shall not name names

 

But i will not go away till justice has been served, so to speak

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

Modified 405 uprights, fabricated lower arms with clevis join, outer bearing in a housing rather than a threaded joint hanging out in the breeze and relying on the thread strength in bending (the weakest part), inner rose joints aligned with load to avoid bending moments, pick up points revised on strengthened subframe for better precision and improved roll centre at lower ride height, revised steering arm position to massively reduce bump steer and rose jointed ends, top mount location revised and strengthened. Revised tubular driveshafts to suit widened track and much stronger.

That's doing it properly and doing less is arguably throwing good money after bad. Points made about joint and welding quality are worth bearing in mind, serious issues towards the safety of it. Having an arm break on the track could be quite serious, but on the road, 10x more so.

 

Ballpark price?

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I popped into AB Motorsport on my way back from work today (good pals with Andy) and mentioned this thread; he's had some calls so I guess someone on this thread rang him.

 

He smiled/chuckled at the concept behind the thread, in a nice way, then sat down an explained to me where all the expense goes. I've said this before on this forum, but I'll say it again. He talked about the joints he uses being best part of £140 each, the labour on the welding around £40, the rods themselves having to be differing types of metal to the EN24 and the arms (so that it'll 'take', I'm guessing?) of which a set uses 5 of the things, then the drop pins, top hats and nyloc which as a kit are the best part of £60+ from memory, the arms themselves (granted not a lot of the cost, but still....), the sleeve, and so forth. He told me how much he makes on a full kit and to be honest, if I was him, I'd be wondering why I even bother.

 

He pulled out some rod ends he'd taken out of arms previously to show me an example of what the difference is. There was play in the bearing already, and it was brand fecking new and unused plus there was not enough thread on the rod itself to be able to screw enough of it into the arm and still have sufficient thread to put a lock nut on.

 

Considering the best part of £280 is taken up in the spherical rod ends (rose joints) I guess this is the main area where you can compromise on quality to reduce cost. I've said it before - horses for courses that maybe some people are happy to trade down on these for track or gentle road use, but the hammering and stresses mine get, I'd rather not risk it. I once clonked a 2-course brick wall head on with my front right wheel, enough shock transferred through the tyre, rim, suspension and hub to shatter the brake disk but amazingly the arm and joint held together.

 

I'm not technically savvy enough to hold up a conversation with the majority of people on this thread, but I know where my faith lies

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

I'd still reckon on a profit of 150-200 quid at least.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

He wishes!

[205wrc 16]

A friend of mine makes these for a living as well as other "Motorsport" parts.......ie alloy hubs, perspex windows, Escort TCA's, Atlas Axle braces etc etc. With over 40 years experience as an MOD engineer he certainly knows what he's doing.

 

 

 

[stu8v 68 1 Cars]

If you want ingenuity look at what the grasstrack boys do......

 

And on a budget.

[Cameron 16]

A friend of mine makes these for a living as well as other "Motorsport" parts.......ie alloy hubs, perspex windows, Escort TCA's, Atlas Axle braces etc etc. With over 40 years experience as an MOD engineer he certainly knows what he's doing..

 

Yep, I'd happily say he knew what he was doing too.

 

Those are MIG'd, right? I'm sure I can see a couple of tell-tale craters where the weld stops. Funny how some people like to MIG like that, leaving fish-scales I mean, each to their own I know but I prefer to have the weld perfectly smooth.

[205wrc 16]

Those are MIG welded by an M.O.D. coded welder. Can't get much better than that.....

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

205WRC: How much are those?

[205_sunderland 4]

I popped into AB Motorsport on my way back from work today (good pals with Andy) and mentioned this thread; he's had some calls so I guess someone on this thread rang him.

 

He smiled/chuckled at the concept behind the thread, in a nice way, then sat down an explained to me where all the expense goes. I've said this before on this forum, but I'll say it again. He talked about the joints he uses being best part of £140 each, the labour on the welding around £40, the rods themselves having to be differing types of metal to the EN24 and the arms (so that it'll 'take', I'm guessing?) of which a set uses 5 of the things, then the drop pins, top hats and nyloc which as a kit are the best part of £60+ from memory, the arms themselves (granted not a lot of the cost, but still....), the sleeve, and so forth. He told me how much he makes on a full kit and to be honest, if I was him, I'd be wondering why I even bother.

 

He pulled out some rod ends he'd taken out of arms previously to show me an example of what the difference is. There was play in the bearing already, and it was brand fecking new and unused plus there was not enough thread on the rod itself to be able to screw enough of it into the arm and still have sufficient thread to put a lock nut on.

 

Considering the best part of £280 is taken up in the spherical rod ends (rose joints) I guess this is the main area where you can compromise on quality to reduce cost. I've said it before - horses for courses that maybe some people are happy to trade down on these for track or gentle road use, but the hammering and stresses mine get, I'd rather not risk it. I once clonked a 2-course brick wall head on with my front right wheel, enough shock transferred through the tyre, rim, suspension and hub to shatter the brake disk but amazingly the arm and joint held together.

 

I'm not technically savvy enough to hold up a conversation with the majority of people on this thread, but I know where my faith lies

 

It was me who called andy today to price his joints and pins, he also agreed with me that i could build a set for road and track use and possibly save money, fact of the matter is the likes of aurora joints could be purchased for a resonable price yet and are used on alot of competition cars including ford racing classes.

 

The application of these arms is for fast road/ track not the heavy duty use of rally which is a different kettle of fish all together, If these joints are being used on other race going vehicles which weigh more and performing well they are worth a try in my eyes.

 

I not going for any cheap unbranded joints im only sourcing good brands that are tried and test i posted earlier what id found purely to see the reaction from people as you lot love a winge.

 

Ill build a set im perfectly happy with for fast road use and use tried and test gear but ive had little help so far just bitching sadly although i am grateful for the people who have helped. just watch the space and ill see what i can do, the insert etc should be buttons to buy as arms arent exactly made out of hypermetapoly alloy themselves are they, only the joint and bolt has to be up to the job on a good material level,

 

i must admit i may get custom bolts made yet from a custom material but ill be sharing the drawings with everyone so they too can make them

Edited July 7, 2011 by 205_sunderland