[project] The Ultimate Track 205

[Sandy 189]

Glad you're open to the idea! I won't bog this down; i'll start a thread I should have probably written a long time ago about the EW range.

[Cameron 16]

There's also been some change (or addition?) of direction to the build, which may help with the powerplant discussion. I started this build as just another project to satisfy my urge to make things, to gain some valuable experience in my first steps of being a suspension designer, and to have a nice toy to play with. I've always had the intention of entering hillclimbs but never really managed to make it happen, this time it will be different, and it will happen!

 

The car is now being designed to enter Sports Libre (or Saloon Libre when it happens) in the sub-2000cc class. As much as I say I'll just enter for the fun of the sport, I want it to be competitive amongst the tin-tops. With the original intentions of a track toy I was happy without spending lots of money on power so was going to pretty much leave the engine alone, just fitting a dry sump and ITB's to make it safe and reliable. But If it's going to be competitive against the other tin-tops it's going to need a little more oomph, so I'm going to lengthen my timescale and increase my budget.

 

Whatever engine I choose it needs to be light weight as keeping the weight and CG low is the primary focus of everything I'm doing to design this car, so iron blocks are most likely out of the question. I don't want to turbocharge it as it's complex, heavy, hot, expensive, laggy and unreliable, and I'm put off by VTEC as it's complex Japanese witchcraft - though I could be persuaded. I'm on a budget as I'm building it by myself without any sponsorship and I'm spending a lot of money on the chassis, so whatever it is it needs to be cost effective to buy, tune and repair / replace. Mounting isn't an issue as I will be doing custom mounts anyway. I'd prefer to have hydraulic clutch and cable operated shifters, too, and a good choice of gear ratios or gearbox tuning options would also be good.

 

While I've done my homework on the Duratec engine, to be honest I haven't really done much on any others, so I'm open to all suggestions and opinions. Just bear in mind that the key things are: low weight, cost effectiveness, tuning potential and cost, minimal complexity, serviceability, replacement and reliability.

 

Edit - just seen your post. That would be great! Feel free to add a link to it from this thread, but also feel free to add any info you want on here, it's a very useful discussion.

Edited January 15, 2012 by Cameron

[Sandy 189]

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=135735

[GLPoomobile 958]

I think you'd be crazy to dismiss the Honda engines.

 

VTEC isn't really that complicated. Certainly the original system wasn't anyway, and I don't think the iVTEC systems now are any more complicated than any of the other systems that many manufacturers are now adopting.

 

One way to look at it is that buying something like a K20A gives you something that is effectively "race tuned" to a certain extent right from the get-go. You could spend thousands modifying a standard (other) engine to up the revs and power, and then maybe blow it up, and you are back to square one and have to go through the same process again. Or you could go with a VTEC engine and get the same performance (this is all hypothetical for the sake of the discussion), and if you blow that up you just need to throw another standard lump back in it's place.

 

You may as well give it some thought since you've now opened up your options.

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

If we're talking Honda VTEC, why not go the whole hog and slip a F20C in place

 

(only 3x the price of a Duratec )

[Sandy 189]

I heartily cheer the merits of VTEC engines and the gearboxes are fantastic too. Having built several Honda powered Peugeots though, I don't think it's all that clear cut. The conversion itself, to do well so reliability is maintained and it all works properly, isn't easy or cheap. My H22A7 into the 309 cost me about £4000 altogether, without my time and with considerably favourable rates on the fabrication. Also although tuning parts for these engines are widely available and cheap, there are ceilings. for example, the K20A2 valvetrain with anything more aggressive than the factory cams, is not hugely reliable if used constantly over 8000rpm and alot of people experience oil pump problems. They are fantastic engines, arguably the best production engines of all, but they are not race engines! They aren't cheap to buy either anymore because of the aftermarket demand and now the K20 is out of production, the values are likely to increase. It's not an easy call.

[GLPoomobile 958]

but they are not race engines!

 

Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean that in the literal sense It was a bit of a sweeping statement and I only meant that in stock form they are already a much higher specification than most other comparable engines.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Since your using a pug shell, I think you should go for a pug engine as well... Why not the EW10J4S? Has a proper box as well...

 

But if other brands are allowed, did you consider the VAG 1.8 20v turbo? In the passat it sits 90 degrees rotated like a rwd car, in front of the axle. Like it's meant to be put in the back off a car.....

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

"back off" -> "backside of"....

 

(stupid auto correct on my phone... )

[Cameron 16]

Since your using a pug shell, I think you should go for a pug engine as well... Why not the EW10J4S? Has a proper box as well...

 

But if other brands are allowed, did you consider the VAG 1.8 20v turbo? In the passat it sits 90 degrees rotated like a rwd car, in front of the axle. Like it's meant to be put in the back off a car.....

 

The only thing that worries me about the EW engine is the availability and therefore cost of tuning parts. While there's several places that offer parts for Duratec engines there seem to be very few offering them for the EW.

 

Looking at the Duratec more, it seems the diff outputs (driveshafts) are quite low in relation to the crank. I don't know how this compares to an XU or EW, but it looks like it may cause a problem with driveshaft angles meaning I have to sit the engine up higher than I would like to.

 

There's a cheap (nackered) Duratec engine & box for sale at the moment, I may get it to use as a dummy engine so I can mock-up and compare to the XU.

[welshpug 1,622]

if you're doing proper engine builds the availability of parts doesn't affect costs greatly at all.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

What about the Audi 1.8t engine?

 

The driveshaft are almost on par with crankshaft if you take the passsat/A4 box:

Ebay

 

And the weight of the engine will me more in the center of the car...

Edited January 16, 2012 by wicked

[Cameron 16]

if you're doing proper engine builds the availability of parts doesn't affect costs greatly at all.

 

You mean because custom parts will be similar cost for any engine? I'd rather not go down the route of custom internals and mega head work, as it means repair / replacing becomes very expensive, off the shelf parts would be a lot better.

 

 

What about the Audi 1.8t engine?

 

And the weight of the engine will me more in the center of the car...

 

The engine will be hanging in front of the front axle though, not good for weight distribution! This car will not just be about straight line speed, it has to handle and grip well.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

I was under the impression that you were building a RWD with a mid engine...

[welshpug 1,622]

off the shelf EW10J4S or EW12 sounds best bet then on bodies of course

[Cameron 16]

Ah, no the project started out that way but plans changed! I think I should have the first few pages trimmed off to make this project make sense again!

 

I'm getting more and more tempted by the EW the more I hear about it.. would be nice to stick to a Peugeot engine too.

[Cameron 16]

Let there be light!

 

 

Finally got my arse in gear after the Christmas break and skiing holidays and did some work! I made a run to B&Q after work yesterday and picked up a few fluorescent strip lights and a load of 18mm MDF sheet. Got busy today wiring a couple of them into a plug so I could illuminate the underside of the car while I work on it, I'll be spending a lot of time down there so it makes sense! I got the rear third of the platform covered, putting some extra reinforcements and packers in as I went along. It's come out real nice and is very stiff so I'm happy!

 

After much reading and debating I've decided to go down the EW10J4S route rather than a Duratec, but you won't see anything to do with that for a while yet! I've also decided that I'm going to bite the bullet and chop pretty much the entire floor out, to replace it with an RHS frame and some flat sheet. The reason being the floor sits quite far below the sills and is littered with pressed details which would make fitting a flat floor a right pain, so what I'll do is effectively raise the floor so it's level with the bottom of the sills; this will also make tying in the rear suspension subframe much neater - more on this later.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Cameron

[Sandy 189]

Ideal

[Cameron 16]

Well, having started at about 10am and finishing about an hour ago I'm absolutely bloody nackered but it's done!

 

 

 

I only messed up one piece as well, which means my normally appalling standards of woodwork must be getting better! Oh, and just FYI the large black lines near the lights aren't gaps, they're where the angle iron sticks up a bit, I'll grind them down flush later.

 

Too tired to do any kind of detailed write-up, it's not exactly the most exciting part of the project anyway. However, with this out of the way I can get some nice accurate measurements to confirm all my CAD, then start building!!

Edited January 22, 2012 by Cameron

[alexcrosse 124]

needs lasers... bitches love lasers.

[Cameron 16]

If I tape a couple of cheap laser pens to it will you be happy?

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

Nice.... How do you get the car from the stands when it's finished?

[welshpug 1,622]

ever heard of a trolley jack ?

[Cameron 16]

 

He's got a point though, it's too high for my trolley jack! If you look back a few pages though you'll see how I got it up there and I'll just reverse the process to remove it.

[wicked 103 3 Cars]

2 pages ago it were 2 seperate stands; now it's a complete frame in one piece...

 

Not that it can be in multiple pieces again, but would be a waste of the effort...

Edited January 23, 2012 by wicked