In Car Entertainment

[platty 1]

Im just starting to plan my modest system for the 205. At present my plans are an Alpine CDE-9880 Single CD header, 5-1/2" JL Audio VR525-CXi front components and a pair of JL Audio VR690-CXi 6x9's on a stealth shelf.

I doubt I'll run an amp as it just adds unnecessary weight and cost.

 

Now I know you can't go too far wrong with JL, but I used to own a pair of Phillips 6x9's and a pair of Oxygen Audio fronts in my first 205 and was amazed at the results. Really clean sound, with deep, yet controlled bass. At the time, the Phillips were winning awards everywhere.

 

What do you run?

Have you any experience of the kit im looking at?

 

Cheers

 

Mark

[sss_205GTI 0]

I love my tunes, but have never been one to spend a fortune on audio - more becuase i have no idea of what really works well together and have always been abit of a cheap skate & not wanted to spend the earth.

Ive got an old pioneer h/unit with some JBL 6x9s, havnt upgraded the front speakers yet - im looking for some half decent working 2nd hand ones.

It plays music without hissing and crackling - that'll do me! :glare:

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You won't go far wrong with the bits you have Plattster. To be frank, most car audio equipment is much of a muchness, unless you spend obscene amounts, which on the face of it is really unnecessary.

 

It's all about standard of installation, in particular (i) safety - we don't want fires or to be malletted in the noggin' by an unsecured amplifier or battery and (ii) solid, well chosen loud speaker mounting with good quality wiring.

 

Use decent cabling, not the 'thinner than a human hair' bell wire that people regularly confuse with speaker wire.

 

Be creative with some MDF, spray paint and stretchy carpet or vinyl and a bit of planning and you can make decidely cheap speakers sound brilliant. Most decent head units chuck out more than enough power these days for a decent system (even in a 205), and a solid MDF parcel shelf will make your (read: any) 6x9s deliver quite a punch and thump.

 

I can show you mine ( :glare: ...my system) at the curry meet and you'll see what I mean. Average crap thrown in well = sweeeeet.

 

Good luck.

 

P.S. As I'm off for ever when I get back, I could even help you design and install your system. Cost = lager!

Edited October 14, 2008 by DrSarty

[eno 0]

agggggges ago, I was once given a 10" JBL sub. Wicked I thought, trouble was I didn't have a sub box. Luckily I found a flower pot it sat in perfectly. But of double sided tape to stick it in and down to the car, it made the noise of a duck trying to escape from my boot !

 

apparently the amp that was something to do with a guitar wasn't the right one either and the whole thing smoked alot. was a sweet effect when taking passengers and the burnt plastic smell came from the rear.

 

The speakers were the retro 80 style box ones people had in their houses, you know the 3ft big wall mounted boxes which I attached to the door cars (bearing in mind this car was a 4 door) - these were a skip find and I recovered them with some curtain material and a staple gun.

 

I'll dig the pics out - seriously considered entering it into a sound off, it was intense!

[platty 1]

I may well take you up on your offer there Sarty (Good Curry house in Crawley ) as I can see time running tight for the car completion and Euro trip.

 

I've had a 'little' experience in putting systems in, but have been out of touch for so long now, im not sure what kit is hot and what is not.

 

A little pair of enclosure's I knocked up in a Puma:-

 

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture102.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture103.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture106.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture107.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture111.jpg

http://s277.photobucket.com/albums/kk54/pl...=Picture121.jpg

Edited October 14, 2008 by platty

[Baz 421]

Sweet FA.

 

Too much weight.

[Fox 3]

I'm running a reasonably decent Sony HU with some 130mm focal comps in the front doors, then (as the parcel shelf had holes in) a pair of decent Audiobahn 6x9's

 

Its the same set up I had in my second car, a 106 Quiksilver three years ago, bar the sub as I couldn't be doing with any more rattles! And boot space is more important!

 

Just need to get the crossovers and tweeters in somewhere... one day.

[platty 1]

bit of a cheap skate & not wanted to spend the earth.

 

I need to follow suit, the little system im planning is still £350

 

these were a skip find and I recovered them with some curtain material and a staple gun.

 

Pikey

 

Sweet FA.

 

So you sing to yourself then Bazil?

 

focal comps

 

[Baz 421]

Ahh yes of course, LOOS with a verse or 2 from The Sound of Music FTW!!

[eno 0]

I've been called a pikey! I'm honoured Thank you!

 

I had a 106 GTI sponsored by VIBE later on, I can never find a happy medium!

[holland_gt 0]

I'm running a new kenwood ipod headunit (50w x4) and running from it I have a set of rockford-fosgate 13cm door speakers in the front and a set of infinity refrence 6x9's on the parcel shelf. It's a great set up as the 6x9's are really deep whilst the fosgates keep the treble up with the great tweeters built into them. Plenty loud enough for a small car but planning to amplify the system, not sure how loud to make it though as the 205 is quite rattle prone!

[Paintguy 0]

Sweet FA.

 

Too much weight.

I have to agree

 

I've recently taken a major multi amp install out of my car and shed close to 100KG! It just drives so much better without the extra weight that I can't bring myself to even put a radio back in there

[sonofsam 5]

In Car Entertainment, System options/opinions

 

A Turbo

[craig f90 0]

A Turbo :D

^^^^^^^^^^^

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I agree with the weight thing. My sub box which has an amp attached and 2 x 15inch Earthquake subs weighs 45kg! That's why it was designed to be removable . Two clips, one Vibe wiring connector and 2 x RCAs unplugged and out she comes.

 

I simply cannot live without bass. Then when I get there, a fair exchange is bass for better handling and more speed, the latter not being important under normal driving conditions. Having said that though I still have what most people call a bloody good system, with 5.25" Sony components in the front, 6x9s on a pucka sound shelf in the back and a £750 MP3 headunit with time alignment.

 

I am the king of the saddo's.

[holland_gt 0]

There are always bassy (if thats how its spelt) 6x9's to buy if you don't want the hassle or weight of a sub. The Vibe Q-Bass for example? Heard they are great if you need deep bass but don't want a sub.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

There are always bassy (if thats how its spelt) 6x9's to buy if you don't want the hassle or weight of a sub. The Vibe Q-Bass for example? Heard they are great if you need deep bass but don't want a sub.

 

No my Dutch friend. I am sorry to say that you and anyone else who believes this is being misled as it is simply not true, because it cannot be.

 

Allow me to explain please. A 6x9 speaker is a 6x9 speaker...period. Yes, some can handle more power - and as a result will probably cost more and I promise you weigh more, as they need a larger magnet and motor structure to control the motion of the cone. This means they will usually play 'louder' but that simply depends on how much power you put through them.

 

Modern head units ARE becoming more powerful, but they are no match whatsoever for an external amplifier with thicker supply and return wires and therefore current handling capability. If you don't believe me, look at even a modestly cheap amplifier and the size of terminals for the live and earth cables and compare them to piss-ant wires going to your head-unit. Additionally, speakers with larger magnets often mean they have less efficiency, so you need more power to get the same meaningful output compared to that needed for a lower power handling rated speaker that has higher efficiency.

 

It's true again that some 6x9 speakers - like all speakers - will 'specification wise' show a wider frequency response range, and in this regard we're talking comparing one 6x9 that says "40hz-38khz" to another that says "35hz-33khz". The bold items tell us how low a frequency the speaker will 'play'....but to what degree?

 

In short, nearly all 6x9's, based on their physical size and the mass of their cones, will all 'play' within a gnat's cock the same band of frequencies, i.e. go down to the same bass frequency WITH ANY SENSE OF YOU BEING ABLE TO HEAR AND ENJOY IT. This is my point, and why I keep writing 'play' in speech marks.

 

I can assure you that the biggest factor that will alter/improve a speaker's performance is its installation or mounting, which really needs to be called an enclosure, because the aim of 'the enclosure' is to enclose the rear wave produced from the rear of the speaker such that it never reaches the front wave and cancels it out. S*itty (standard) parcel shelves suffer from exactly this problem. The ultimate speaker enclosure is really some form of 'box'..... ...shock horror, just like you have at home. Do you believe me now?

 

In conclusion (thank f*ck the forum cries ), a 6x9 speaker, even on a pretty decent acoustic (read: fat, heavy MDF) shelf will only produce decent bass down to about 60-80hz, which funnily enough is where a sub BOX, i.e. a sub-woofer, designed for playing deep, low bass, and most importantly when it's properly enclosed in a box, takes over the duties of playing the low notes with enough gusto. And the price you pay is you need power and a heavy(ish) box.

 

So yes, 6x9's can play bass, but not deeply, and no one 6x9 is really going to perform any better than another 6x9 - even an elcheapo one - in the same type of mounting. To play and sound better, improve the speaker installation; then add power and control like decent crossovers. Decent 'deep' bass requires effort, and I'm afraid cost and weight.

 

Here endeth the lesson. I was bored.

Edited October 16, 2008 by DrSarty

[jeremy 68]

I'm sorry I did not quite catch that could you say it again please

 

Seriously that was well written

 

Jeremy

[boldy205 74]

My favourite tune of the moment: The Weber DCOE symphony.

[holland_gt 0]

No my Dutch friend. I am sorry to say that you and anyone else who believes this is being misled as it is simply not true, because it cannot be.

 

Allow me to explain please. A 6x9 speaker is a 6x9 speaker...period. Yes, some can handle more power - and as a result will probably cost more and I promise you weigh more, as they need a larger magnet and motor structure to control the motion of the cone. This means they will usually play 'louder' but that simply depends on how much power you put through them.

 

Modern head units ARE becoming more powerful, but they are no match whatsoever for an external amplifier with thicker supply and return wires and therefore current handling capability. If you don't believe me, look at even a modestly cheap amplifier and the size of terminals for the live and earth cables and compare them to piss-ant wires going to your head-unit. Additionally, speakers with larger magnets often mean they have less efficiency, so you need more power to get the same meaningful output compared to that needed for a lower power handling rated speaker that has higher efficiency.

 

It's true again that some 6x9 speakers - like all speakers - will 'specification wise' show a wider frequency response range, and in this regard we're talking comparing one 6x9 that says "40hz-38khz" to another that says "35hz-33khz". The bold items tell us how low a frequency the speaker will 'play'....but to what degree?

 

In short, nearly all 6x9's, based on their physical size and the mass of their cones, will all 'play' within a gnat's cock the same band of frequencies, i.e. go down to the same bass frequency WITH ANY SENSE OF YOU BEING ABLE TO HEAR AND ENJOY IT. This is my point, and why I keep writing 'play' in speech marks.

 

I can assure you that the biggest factor that will alter/improve a speaker's performance is its installation or mounting, which really needs to be called an enclosure, because the aim of 'the enclosure' is to enclose the rear wave produced from the rear of the speaker such that it never reaches the front wave and cancels it out. S*itty (standard) parcel shelves suffer from exactly this problem. The ultimate speaker enclosure is really some form of 'box'..... ...shock horror, just like you have at home. Do you believe me now?

 

In conclusion (thank f*ck the forum cries ), a 6x9 speaker, even on a pretty decent acoustic (read: fat, heavy MDF) shelf will only produce decent bass down to about 60-80hz, which funnily enough is where a sub BOX, i.e. a sub-woofer, designed for playing deep, low bass, and most importantly when it's properly enclosed in a box, takes over the duties of playing the low notes with enough gusto. And the price you pay is you need power and a heavy(ish) box.

 

So yes, 6x9's can play bass, but not deeply, and no one 6x9 is really going to perform any better than another 6x9 - even an elcheapo one - in the same type of mounting. To play and sound better, improve the speaker installation; then add power and control like decent crossovers. Decent 'deep' bass requires effort, and I'm afraid cost and weight.

 

Here endeth the lesson. I was bored.

 

 

Lots of effort went into that didn't it!

And I agree but for those who do buy car audio not for the amazing sound quality, just want a bit more bass without the weight factor a decent set of speakers on the parcel shelf would suffice without popping or distorting as soon as they turned the system up.

 

Oh and I'm English!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Lots of effort went into that didn't it!

 

Thanks, and yes it did. I hope it helps a few people not get confused or worse ripped off.

 

One thing I didn't add that thankfully you've reminded me of - and please don't think I'm jumping on everything you say - is that it's NOT the speakers that are causing any popping or distortion!

 

Yes that's where the sound (naturally) comes from, but it's the amplifier that drives them that is being pushed too hard and is going into what's called 'clipping'. This means it's sending a clipped, distorted signal, almost approaching a DC voltage which ultimately will destroy the speaker. It starts by popping and distorting like you say, but it ain't the speaker.

 

The ONLY time a speaker will 'distort' if receiving a clean signal is, if through poor installation the woofer cone is not getting any support from a cushion of air behind it - which is exactly what the air inside a speaker enclosure is doing - meaning the speaker's own suspension cannot control its movement and it starts playing inaccurately, aka distorted. Even a solid MDF baffle is a good start in this regard.

 

Trust me, I can make what some would call crap speakers sound great when properly installed and decently powered. Even the addition of a proper aftermarket amplifier can transform a system if a little attention is paid to how the speakers are mounted. One will convince one's self ( ) that the new speakers they've just forked out £200 on sound better, even if they don't sound better, because in reality it's the same pants amplifier driving them with now probably an even more clipped signal, because their proud owner is convinced their new wonder speakers can handle even more power.

 

This info is not directed either at purely sound quality purists or sad car hi-fi geeks. We all like decent sounding music that isn't distorted. 205's are inherently quite noisy, so the tendancy to go and splash out money on new speakers because they have to turn their systems up to counter the ambient road (& throttle body) noise is quite a common occurrence.

 

I'm just saying for the benefit of this forum and mankind in general (PMSL), that this doesn't really rectify the problem. Either reduce the ambient noise by using sound deadening materials/ less noisy exhaust etc, and/or increase the volume capabilities of the system by improving what performance the speakers can deliver with either more/cleaner power and/or decent speaker mounting.

 

Lesson 2 endeth.

Edited October 21, 2008 by DrSarty

[platty 1]

Sir, Sir, I heard you mention enclosures, can you explain the difference between 'Free Air' 'Sealed' 'Ported' 'Isobaric' 'Band Pass' and 'Aperiodic'?

 

Sarty, you know your stuff, I'll give you that.

 

Im planning to mount either 6x9's or maybe even 6" coaxials on a stealth shelf with a 10" shallow mount subwoofer also mounted on the same shelf but with fibreglass enclosing the underside. I've made fibreglass enclosures before for my MR2, which had 2x12" Kicker L7 subwoofers running at 2ohms@1000wrms, controlled by a Pheonix Gold Bass cube and supported by a 5 farad stiffining cap. The results were amazing, to the point that I had a sound off with a local ICE shop and out Db'd their demo car!

 

I also like my bass, but boot space and weight are two factoring issue's with my system build. Although the sub's performance will be hampered slightly by the lack of a solid enclosure(as in bolted to the car, or enough mass that it does'nt move), I'm sure I can get decent results with the compromise.

 

 

Two 15's !!

Edited October 21, 2008 by platty

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Can you explain the difference between 'Free Air' 'Sealed' 'Ported' 'Isobaric' 'Band Pass' and 'Aperiodic'?

 

Yes. But do you (& the poor old forum) really want me to?

 

Platty> If you want my advice though, 6x9s will deliver more bass simply because they'll have a larger cone surface area than the round 6" coaxials.

 

I'd forget the 10" sub unless you're going to properly box it though. Reason is a light(weight) enclosure as you're planning in fibreglass under the shelf will not do the job of an effective enclosure because it will be {a} too small for the sub & {b} won't function to enclose the wave (you need strength & density for that) unless the glass resin etc is over 1/2" thick!

 

In addition, the 6x9s will be plenty with a good amp - only bettered by adding a sub in a proper box with an amp too - and you will save the weight of the under performing 10" sub and enclosure hanging off the shelf, which would decapitate you if it wasn't secured properly in a prang!

 

If you wanna play with glass fibre, I'd use it to make a 5 sided MDF box with a contoured rear fibreglass wall to hug the side of the boot wall/wheel arch. Screw/bolt it to the wheel arch through the back of the box and the metal arch then pop the sub in.

 

PG BassCUBES are awesome; I've just bought one. They help compensate for subs being in too small a box. The idea of my 2x15"s is that they are isobaric (face to face - one wired in reverse polarity) to effectively give the performance of 1x15" sub in a box twice the size. The CUBE will lower the meaningful frequency output in this case to stomach twisting proportions .

 

BIN THE CAPACITOR; they are s*ite!!!! The whole concept is floored and you are just depriving your system of real power and carrying extra weight. There is a massive thread on Talk Audio about this, all quoted from a serious editor of the American Car Audio & Security magazine. I can link you to it if you want, but trust me, they are a rip off, an electrical theory contradiction and crap!!

 

Any more for any more? I'm sure PaintGuy knows more about this stuff than me, but I'm bored waiting for a flight out of Afghanistan and have lots/too much to say. Have faith though; I never lie.

 

Edited October 21, 2008 by DrSarty

[platty 1]

I had a poke around on Talk Audio and found some Capacitor topics....I was going to argue my case, as most people were just saying 'don't bother', but not giving reasons why. Then I stumbled across Richard Clarke's 'Lessons' topic, and though, his Kung Fu is stronger than mine!

[Simsy 0]

Hmm, i don't want to be spending too much on ICE for mine, i also want to keep everything standard as the car really is minty fresh

 

What would be the best replacements for the standard stuff that fits in the standard holes without looking.....errm, non standard?