1.9 Conversion Done

[2052006 10]

Have spent all weekend swapping my 1.6 for a 1.9, and have come to try and start it up but have a problem:

 

It's cranking fine on the starter, but won't catch. There is fuel getting to the rail, but haven't checked the injectors, but everything is known good. What is the best (and safest) way of checking I'm getting a spark? Anything obvious I'm missing? I'm going to need a new battery at this rate!

 

Help!

[Alastairh 47]

Disconect the injectors (so it doesn't flood).

 

Using a spark plug, with one of the 4 leads attached, point the electrobe tip of the plug to the strut to centre nut/engine mount threads and turn the engine over. Its do able on your own.

 

If no joy there. Put the plug in the coil lead that runs to the distribution cap. Post your results and can go from there.

 

Al

[2052006 10]

thanks for the reply - sorry but never had to do this before - how close to the strut top does the plug have to be? Is it just a case of removing one plug from the head and pointing it in that direction with the others still in the head?

[Baz 421]

The plug simply just needs a small gap before a point to earth to, so you can see if it sparks when you turn it over.

[2052006 10]

cheers baz. I have however, just swapped the dizzy and HT leads for some others (also known good -supposedly!) and went to fire it up and it caught immediately but then only ran for like a couple of seconds....

 

I'm thinking maybe I've flooded the cylinders with fuel from all the previous cranking?

 

Also I presume that shows that I am getting a spark?

[2052006 10]

Well, I got it going for about 20 secs before letting the revs drop and it died immediately. Then it wouldn't start again...

 

So, safe to assume I have a spark and fuel, but maybe things need adjusting...

 

Thanks for the help

[2052006 10]

This is annoying me now. Having got it going once, it wont start again. Have taken the plugs out, dried them and put them back in. Still no go. I can't think what might be the problem when it seemed to go okay once (albeit dying when I let the revs fall). Anyone have any suggestions what this would point to? So close yet so far!

[t16ryan 1]

Check you have no air leaks, either inlet, or the adapter that goes onto the AFM if the bolts are loose it will cause this, Was it running on all 4 when you had it running?

[t16ryan 1]

Sounds like you have the ECU temp sensor on the wrong plug, swap the plugs that are below the dizzy over think it was blue and black ( havent worked on a 8v for ages :)

[steve@cornwall 100]

This is annoying me now. Having got it going once, it wont start again. Have taken the plugs out, dried them and put them back in. Still no go. I can't think what might be the problem when it seemed to go okay once (albeit dying when I let the revs fall). Anyone have any suggestions what this would point to? So close yet so far!

 

 

Typical symptoms of not connecting the blue ecu temp. sender plug ?

[gerlewislewis 0]

Sounds like you have the ECU temp sensor on the wrong plug, swap the plugs that are below the dizzy over think it was blue and black ( havent worked on a 8v for ages :)

 

 

I think you have got a bit mixed up, the ecu temp sensor is below these 2, and has 2-prongs (near exhaust manifold). There is nothing near it that is similar which can get mixed up.

 

The two single-spade connectors above this can get mixed up though. - not sure they would give starting problems though.

 

is your ignition timing in order? also your AFM connected up to the electrics?

 

PS you can get ht lead bulbs from halfords for a few quid.

[t16ryan 1]

Thought you could get the black SAD plug and the Blue ECU temp sensor the wrong way round ?? pretty sure i done a guys car that wouldnt run ( simular problems a few years ago and pretty sure it was the SAD and temp sensor he mixed up ) ??

[welshpug 1,622]

check the AFM plug!

[daza4 24]

You have a message mate.

[steve@cornwall 100]

Thought you could get the black SAD plug and the Blue ECU temp sensor the wrong way round ?? pretty sure i done a guys car that wouldnt run ( simular problems a few years ago and pretty sure it was the SAD and temp sensor he mixed up ) ??

 

100% right, Ryan - these 2 plugs even come from the same place on the loom - Identical bar the colour

[daza4 24]

Well I am going to go round tonight to give the fella a hand if I can!!! so will double check all these items.

 

See you later Pete.

[daza4 24]

Went round last night and all the wiring seems to be in the right places, It will fire but just wont stay running unless you have your hand on the throttle.

Once started it runs smooth but the minute you release the throttle it just dies? Then trying to get it restarted it just cranks over. If then left for a few minutes it will restart but only as before with a bit extra throttle.

I also did check the inlet manifold for air leaks (I left a bolt out of mine when i worked on it) but all where in the right place.

 

The only thing that has changed is the throttle pot as the 1.9 had one of the lower coolant outlets broken off. But we did try it last night with the original but it was even worse than it is now with the 1.6 one on it.

 

When I got home the thing that were racing through my mind were:

 

1. AFM. is this a cause?

2. the brown plug - But then would it start?

3. Tach relay - again would it even start?

4. Fuel pump - causing a lower pressure than it needs ? Are the 1.6 and 1.9 pumps diffferent?

 

Pete who owns the car has replaced the ecu for a 1.9 one along with the AFM. is there anything else that would need swapping over that he may of missed?

 

Any help on this would be really appreciated.

 

One last point I do enjoy working on my car with carbs, I had forgotten how much pipework there is on a standard 205 especially one with Power steering!!!

 

Sorry I couldnt fix it last night Pete.

[simonb 0]

will it stay run with the idle screw wound all the way out? I'm guessing that its running way to rich.

[welshpug 1,622]

sounds like the throttle stop and idle screw need setting up, as well as the TPS.

[steve@cornwall 100]

Amateur method, maybe, but at this point I'd put it side by side with a running GTi and compare voltage readings at various places with a simple multimeter. I would start at the AFM as it seems like an overfuelling issue, peel back the rubber boot on the AFM plug and test from the back of the plug. Then I would compare at the ecu. Write the result from both cars in columns opposite each other for comparison, and at rest and cranking. Maybe worth seeing if it will start, but not rev, with the AFM plugged in but disconnected to the inlet pipework. - May even be worth plugging a known good ecu sensor into the wiring and see what happens - should run fine until the engine warms up.

 

Where did the 1.9 engine come from, and do you KNOW it was running properly when removed? It's not unknown for cars to get broken because the owner can't get them to run........ Not suggesting the engine is u/s, but are you using the sensors, afm, ecu etc. that came with it?

 

(edit- checked your previous posts) engine a bit of unknown? and a first cam belt change? Again with a runner parked alongside I would re-check the cam timing, peg the pullies and check the position of respective rotor arms. Maybe swap out the afm and ecu from your old 1.6 - should start up fine with them- before all the multimeter pallaver

Edited June 18, 2008 by steve@cornwall

[ALEX 98 1 Cars]

ECU temp sensor could be f**ked, There should be a resistance reading across the connections on the sensor.

[daza4 24]

will it stay run with the idle screw wound all the way out? I'm guessing that its running way to rich.

 

I did try this last night with the 1.6 throttle bodie fitted. I wound it in all the way and also back out but didnt seem to make a difference. I also counted how many turns so at least I know it is back where we started!!!

 

sounds like the throttle stop and idle screw need setting up, as well as the TPS.

 

How would you go about setting these up Welshpug? I have never done them because I have nearly always been taking the injection off to fit carbs!

 

Amateur method, maybe, but at this point I'd put it side by side with a running GTi and compare voltage readings at various places with a simple multimeter. I would start at the AFM as it seems like an overfuelling issue, peel back the rubber boot on the AFM plug and test from the back of the plug. Then I would compare at the ecu. Write the result from both cars in columns opposite each other for comparison, and at rest and cranking. Maybe worth seeing if it will start, but not rev, with the AFM plugged in but disconnected to the inlet pipework. - May even be worth plugging a known good ecu sensor into the wiring and see what happens - should run fine until the engine warms up.

 

Where did the 1.9 engine come from, and do you KNOW it was running properly when removed? It's not unknown for cars to get broken because the owner can't get them to run........ Not suggesting the engine is u/s, but are you using the sensors, afm, ecu etc. that came with it?

That is a very good idea. I may have to get another of our club members to come over and then we will be able to check. At least that way we can determine all the setups are correct.

From what Pete had told me all the items are from the original 1.9 engine ie the afm ecu etc.

Pete did actually change the ecu sensor from the old 1.6 engine and he said it did seem to be better. but it still wont start properly.

From what I am led to believe the 1.9 Engine came from Anthony on here who lives locally to Pete. I seem to understand he is of the honest variety!!! and from what Pete told me last night it was a good runner and Anthony had driven it from up north somewhere back to swindon.

 

When it is running it does sound very sweet. its just it wont idle or start properly.

[simonb 0]

OK. I would'nt worry about the TPS as the engine should run even with this disconnected. Next, I would double check the cam timing if it's too retarded then starting becomes more difficult. Advance the ignition timing about 1cm at a time and try starting again. This should give you a strong idle on startup.

 

If the car is dying under throttle when running then it must be either overfueling or an ignition related problem. Is the ignition amp connected securely as well as the yellow connection from the dizzy to the loom? If all this fails, I would swap the AFM and dizzy for your 1600 items just to try and pinpoint the problem.

[steve@cornwall 100]

Pete did actually change the ecu sensor from the old 1.6 engine and he said it did seem to be better. but it still wont start properly.

 

When it is running it does sound very sweet. its just it wont idle or start properly.

 

 

May be an idea to treat it to new plugs, then - apparently the overfuelling can glaze the plugs badly, too much for a general clean

[2052006 10]

Thanks for all the suggestions and cheers to Daza for spending the evening in the rain looking at my car! I've just got back from work so will have another go at it...

 

Just to clarify:

 

Engine should be okay, was a good runner when I bought it from Anthony a couple of months ago. Of course, I could have f@cked it up doing my first cambelt change, but daza seemed to think it was okay (when it ran!)

 

AFM, injectors, dizzy and ecu all are 1.9.

 

I did change the 1.9 temp sensor for my old 1.6 one and it seemed to start better, but again, wouldn't idle and then won't restart immediately, as per before.

 

Cheers

 

Pete