1.9 Gti Nos

[jamiej 0]

Aome of you may know that i am in the middle of my cylinder head re build, this weekend i had a idea that i thought i'd just run past you guys to see the response.

 

A chap called Bergerman has a hugely insightful website about a "DIY NOS" system, the system (if installed and fabricated properly) offers the same performance and safety as the retail W.O.N and NOS systems...

 

So, with that in mind, i was just going to ask you guys if any of you has had any experience with NOS in a 205 GTI. does the car take well to it, it is hugely foolish, what sort of power shot can you go for without blowing your engine to smithereens.

 

The systems can run any power increase from 40 BHP to 280 BHP, i thought around the 90-100 shot would be most realistic but as stated above, any comments suggestions welcome.

 

Thanks

Jamie

[Roman 0]

for standard 1.9 engine is 40hp realistic more is dangerous...

[jamiej 0]

Thanks for that Roman, is that just due to the internals of the engine ?

[base-1 17]

You can run more than 40bhp extra no problem, though using a controller would be sensible/needed. Start low though to get the correct nitrous:fuel ratio before upping the power.

 

WON is good, NOS is poor, DIY is appalling, just don't do it. Nitrous has a reputation for blowing things up for a reason - it blows things up, but only when the kit is fitted or designed badly.

 

Using gas is the same as any other tuning, if you jump in at the deep and then you'll have problems. You wouldn't bolt on a big turbo and just change the injectors for something bigger, assume it will work and run 2 bar boost would you? No, because it would be crap. Same principles

[jamiej 0]

You can run more than 40bhp extra no problem, though using a controller would be sensible/needed. Start low though to get the correct nitrous:fuel ratio before upping the power.

 

WON is good, NOS is poor, DIY is appalling, just don't do it. Nitrous has a reputation for blowing things up for a reason - it blows things up, but only when the kit is fitted or designed badly.

 

Using gas is the same as any other tuning, if you jump in at the deep and then you'll have problems. You wouldn't bolt on a big turbo and just change the injectors for something bigger, assume it will work and run 2 bar boost would you? No, because it would be crap. Same principles

 

 

Has no one here got any experience in the DIY NOS system, surely its do able, if enough car and attension is paid then you should have a relaible and safe system.

 

Thanks for the feedback

Jamie

[pip470 61]

Has no one here got any experience in the DIY NOS system, surely its do able, if enough car and attension is paid then you should have a relaible and safe system.

 

Thanks for the feedback

Jamie

 

 

The thing with diy is its never as good as a profesional job. With your engine this could be a disaster, costing well more than a top of the range kit from won in rebuild parts and time. £300 will get you a kit on the bay and won have yet to report a component failure. People still blow up thier engines using nitrous as thier are limiting factors such as your post wanting to find out what they are. I think xu engines are really good, I f you consider the amount of thrashing they have taken over the years and you dont see many posts on here about thier engines blowing holes in the side, not 1.9 or 1.6 engines anyway. If I was you wanting to nitrous my 1.9 i would as alredy suggested, buy a won kit with a controller and start at 25hp, I would then work my way up to eventually 50 maybe 75 but with out any other mods I think you will be pushing it. How many miles has your engine done because most are over 100,00 and that can play a big part in what lets go first. Good luck

Phill

[base-1 17]

As always, you "can" DIY it, but you won't get as good a result.

 

The main factor with a DIY kit is the solenoids, which are also one of the main downfalls of the american kits. They are cheap, s*ite, not-designed-for-purpose valves that need rebuilding ALOT. N.O.S. recommend rebuilding their own solenoids every time you empty a large bottle of gas. Says alot really.

 

And when a solenoid fails, your engine will follow it, no question.

[jamiej 0]

After some research, i totally agree that the solenoids are the most important part of the kit. Surely though, the valves that WON and NOS sell are going to marked up from the supplier to get a return on the sales.

 

You CAN buy the WON solenoids but at a premium, im fairly certain you could take the spec of the WON solenoids, visit a pneumatics and ask for the same/similar solenoid (obviously not as simple as that), for the same money that WON charge you will probably get a better, higher spec solenoid ?

 

Jet wise, this is kind of down to trying sizes out, there are numerous calculators on the internet that take the feed pressure of both the NO2 and Fuel and calculate the jet required to achieve the desired power increase. I think as long as you are not unrealistic/greedy some gentle trials could get you the desired results.

 

So far the hardest/most expensive part of the kit seems to be the gas bottle and high flow valve, i am going to ask the welders at work about this, NOS charge about the £100 - £150 for the bottle with valve, BUT you can use a C02 extinguisher bottle with the correct valve fitting ... its just finding that valve fitting.

 

Im still looking around, i will let you guys know when i make any more relisations etc etc.

 

in the mean time, any more suggestions, ideas, comments and opinions are welcome.

 

Jamie

[jackherer 543]

You CAN buy the WON solenoids but at a premium, im fairly certain you could take the spec of the WON solenoids, visit a pneumatics and ask for the same/similar solenoid (obviously not as simple as that), for the same money that WON charge you will probably get a better, higher spec solenoid ?

 

My understanding is thats true of all solenoids except the WON ones which are actually unique.

 

http://www.noswizard.com/cad_drawings/sol_comparison.jpg

[jamiej 0]

Thanks for that JackHerer, i'll take it the pnematics place and see what they say, im a little dubious as to what a "standard" solenoid looks like, after having a little look there are literally thousands of different types available. This, i guess, could mean that finding the correct "non branded" one could take some time !!!

[base-1 17]

You won't find the "correct" non-branded one - Trev's solenoids are his own design specifically for pulsed nitrous use, and the different components are assembled in-house. You won't find them anywhere else!

 

The rest sounds alright, but for the hassle you may aswell just buy a second hand kit!

[jamiej 0]

Oh ok, i didnt think that they where THAT custom, i just thought Trev from WON found the correct solenoid required, got a deal with the manufacturer and then branded the solenoids as WON solenoids.

 

I'll have a look and an ask from a couple of pneumatics places though, they may be available, you never know, that said, i'm pretty certain that the NOS solenoids are nothing special and they seem to sell millions of kits with "normally" happy customers.

 

I guess NO2 ing a car on a budget, you will have to make do with the parts that you can get with the budget in mind, i don't think the other type solenoids (not pulsoids) are dangerous to the car, as the other NO2 companies do not use the pulsoid solenoid, they just wont give the perfect flow characteristics as the pulsoids. If it was dangerous to use non Trev WON solenoids then surely WON would be the only NO2 company that makes systems that doesn't destroy everyones cars.

 

DIY NO2, therefore, if done correctly can be as effective, if not better than a NOS or NX system. from a purely solenoid point of view.

 

Then, if the bottle, bottle valve, regualator, plumbing, jets are all done correctly then ... Bingo Bango there we go!

 

 

Another point, WON and the DIY site that i am using are the only campanies/ppl who do not use foggers, they simoply jet the NO2 and fuel straight from the solenoid, then the "jetted" NO2 and Fuel travel through a delivery tube to the intake. I have read numerous opinions on this and reasons why this system is better but still cant really get my head around it. Surely, if the lovely jetted and atomised fuel has to then travel down a 2-4mm nylon pipe, wont it just drip out the end ? any ideas.

 

Thanks

Jaime

[pip470 61]

Using a crossfire injector, the oreintation of the two supplys are fuel at the front closest the inlet valve and nitrous behind, The design of this injector insures the nitrous being sprayed in behind the fuel wil atomise the fuel too. If you look at the cut down diagram of the injector you can also see how the two are mixed. It sounds as if your going to go ahead with your diy kit any way. Im interested to see if you can actually do it for under £300, also Im betting you will quickly destroy your engine, and also trev went the diy route a long time ago because no one else was doing decent reliable gear, Now they are why are you risking it. All the best with it mate, you never know you could be the new wizard of nos. Lol

[GLPoomobile 958]

Dr Sam Beckett nossed up a station wagon in an episode of Quantum Leap with very crude components. Think he used laughing gas from a dentist surgery.

 

So it CAN be done easily!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Oh boy!

Edited May 21, 2008 by GLPoomobile

[jamiej 0]

Using a crossfire injector, the oreintation of the two supplys are fuel at the front closest the inlet valve and nitrous behind, The design of this injector insures the nitrous being sprayed in behind the fuel wil atomise the fuel too. If you look at the cut down diagram of the injector you can also see how the two are mixed. It sounds as if your going to go ahead with your diy kit any way. Im interested to see if you can actually do it for under £300, also Im betting you will quickly destroy your engine, and also trev went the diy route a long time ago because no one else was doing decent reliable gear, Now they are why are you risking it. All the best with it mate, you never know you could be the new wizard of nos. Lol

 

 

It its madly important to get the nitrous to pass through the fuel, its helps the atomization as well as cooling the fuel which should help minimise det.

 

I really would like to go for this kit, i think it could a fun project, and apart from the cost of the solenoids, (which i think weve agreed, you cant cheap out on) it does look like it could be done for fairly little money. That said, im sure they will be some pitfalls to overcome but im definately considering it !!

 

With regards to engine destruction, i dont think that this will be the case really, i think as long as you dont go for mad power then the engine should be fine for a 40-45% power increase, i mean, most of these engines get tormented on a daily basis, driven hard from cold, stopped when piping hot, oil startved etc etc, and its not as if you get pistons melting of rods being thrown left right and centre. The limiting factor i think would be the clutch, gearbox and driveshafts, which will have to deal with the extra power, thats where the failures will be ... i imagine.

Also, with the amout of people dropping in GTi-6, S16 and Mi16 engines and gearboxes . if the worst does happen ... drop in another engine !! its noy as if your NO2ing a £15k M3 ! f you know what i mean.

 

If i do decide to go for it, i will defo do a walkthrough for how to do it with videos etc etc, also i will publish a list of parts suppliers and problems etc etc ...

 

Again, this is only an idea, its not a definate, by any means.

 

Cheers for the comments !! very much aprreciated, any more ideas welcome. Is any one currently running NO2, if so, what sort of power shot are you using, whats it like !!!

 

Cheers

Jamie

[Longun 1]

Dr Sam Beckett nossed up a station wagon in an episode of Quantum Leap with very crude components. Think he used laughing gas from a dentist surgery.

 

So it CAN be done easily!

Oh boy!

 

That made me chuckle

 

On topic I've used Trev before and his kits are great. Just don't go playing with the fuelling like I did else wave bye bye to the engine. If you lean the fuel off (as I did) I noticed it made my old 306 fly. However it lost a piston ring shortly after that (I think because the temperatures are higher) and it ruined the engine completely. So therefore even if you have a great kit (WON) then a buffoon (Me) can still cock it all up.

 

My kit was fitted to a 306 Xsi (16v) and ran a best time of 14.7 at pod with the 75bhp jets in.

 

One other note is 75bhp jets don't really give you 75bhp on a N/A engine. More like 50ish. On a turbo engine higher gains are achived.

 

Unless I was a 1/4 mile freak I wouldn't use it on the road. Its short lived and you can guarantee when someone else wants to play you've left the bottle closed so can't use it.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Longun

[jamiej 0]

This whole project has been put in hold for a bit now.

 

With regards to the components i have managed to pick up some NOS cheater soleniods for £20 the pair !! quite an eBay bargain.

 

I have a bottle that i have polished up and now require a valve for it.

 

I have made a nitrous fogger (see my head rebuild diary)

 

All that is required now is the necessary fittings.

 

Shopping list so far ...

 

Nitrous Bottle (luxfer CO2 300 BAR Fire Extinguisher) - £10

NOS Cheater Fuel Solenoid

Nos Cheater NO2 solenoid - £20 the pair

NOS rebuild kit - £30

Nitrous Fogger - £free

Inlet Manifold for NO2 application - £10 (forum ... thanks !)

Valve - £Unknown

Fittings - £free (from work)

Braided hose - £unknown

 

so, so far it all seems like it could all be done for under 2 tanks of petrol !!! yippee !!!

 

comments ... suggestions ...

[gerlewislewis 0]

so how much does a refil cost? and how many 20-100mph runs could you do with it?

 

Ger

[jamiej 0]

Well ... the refil are going to be about £30 i believe but im not totally sure how long that will last, however im only currently going to run with a small bottle (2 kg) which in essence is tiny ... so it wont last long, but ... its a starting point and the rest of the system will work with a larger bottle. I think the 11lb bottles last for about 7-10 runs on a strip running the similar sort of power increase (40-80 BHP).

 

All very exciting though. have to wait and see what happens, i may get a slave engine to the try the system out on, beofre sticking it in my current car ... only an idea though, im having lots of fun just making it at the moment !!

 

i thought that the solenoids where going to be the biggest expense but after my little eBay bargain, it seems that the solenoids may cost less than pipe required to plumb it in. Cant really take any chances with compressed gas, so i need to make sure that all the fittings,valves,hose etc are running well within their specification. I know that im safe with the bottle and the solenoids as they are being used for their manufactured intent.

 

I think, funds providing, i may rig a pressure guage for the inlet manifold, to let me know when the NO2 is indeed running, at least then god forbid if a solenoids fails i can stop the engine before anything disastrous happens, or Cut the NO2 supply.

Edited June 16, 2008 by jamiej

[jamiej 0]

Also, there is slim chance that the refils maybe free as my God father is a private dentist ... i am yet to ask him yet though

[CaptainK 11]

Also, there is slim chance that the refils maybe free as my God father is a private dentist ... i am yet to ask him yet though

I didn't think of that.... my dad is a dentist.

[jamiej 0]

oh i didn't write "private", to sound like a tw*t by the way. i meant, that means he would sort out his own nitrous ... that its all

[jackherer 543]

vets are useful here too...

[jamiej 0]

Righty, thought i'd share some photographs of the system so far ... here you go

 

 

Costs,

 

Bottle £10

Solenoids (NOS cheater pair) £20

Fittings £10

Fogger £Free (homemade)

Polish Kit £Free

 

so thats £40 so far, all i need now is a valve and the jets.

 

ive totally rebuilt the the solenoids and am in the middle of re painting them.

 

Let me know what you think

 

Cheers

Jamie

[pip470 61]

Any news on this? How have you got on?