GTI 6 Supercharged Won't Fire Up!

[Garry 1]

Yes, I have fuel whilst cranking.

[Garry 1]

It really does sound to me like it's not injecting fuel when cranking, so if you get fuel out the pipe, make sure the injectors are squirting too by doing what WP said earlier, that is if you haven't already done that and checked it when cranking.

 

I haven't actually cranked whilst watching the injectors. I have lifted them out a little bit though and the ends were wet.

[welshpug 1,622]

I would be tempted to lift the rail out to see the spray pattern clearly, as well as letting the plugs dry out.

 

could also try the old plugs in it just to be sure as they should be bone dry having sat out of and engine for a while.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The fuel pressure or cranking fuel is worth checking for sure, I know when I converted a 306 to Carbs (Spit) I had a game finding a live switched feed.

If not I would check the loom but as your getting a spark it's got to be something silly

[Garry 1]

Rich walker has just presented another theory:

 

The system runs a wasted spark, one spark at TDC and one at BDC.

 

It could be the spark I have witnessed was the BDC one. So the piston was at the bottom of the chamber and the spark was missing the fuel and compression.

 

It makes sense to me

 

He is sending another ECU for me to try. Hopefully this will work, fingers crossed.

 

On a side note does anyone know how Clifford alarms work? I have a Concept 300 on my car.

This could be another option, do they stop the ignition too?

 

I remember when Pug Performance un plugged the alarm and forgot about it during the original conversion. The starter wouldn't work, they got around this by running the starter by hand of the battery with a piece if wire! So maybe it cuts off the starter?

[kate205gti 4]

they normally cut off the starter - in which case it wouldnt crank at all, just click

 

otherwise they cut the fuel pump so see if youve got petrol out the injectors

 

if so what about he fuel pressure regulator - ie: if the fuel is coming out how much pressure is it under??

Edited May 7, 2008 by kate205gti

[Alastairh 47]

To un flood it. Disconnect the injector plugs, and turn it over. It will then run and die 5 seconds later.

 

Al

[M@tt 77]

sounds very much like an ignition problem from my limited experience, I had all the same symptons on my old cti when i first got it, i had fuel, i had spark but it just wouldn't start, it turned over but just wouldn't catch. It turned out the leads had been put on in the wrong order so it was firing at the wrong time

 

Sounds like it could be firing at the wrong time of the cycle. Were you running the ECU before you started all this work? if not are the Crank Angle Sensor degree settings correct in the software ie so it knows exactly when TDC is?

 

or if its had a remap could the setting have been accidently changed?

 

just some food for thought

[Garry 1]

sounds very much like an ignition problem from my limited experience, I had all the same symptons on my old cti when i first got it, i had fuel, i had spark but it just wouldn't start, it turned over but just wouldn't catch. It turned out the leads had been put on in the wrong order so it was firing at the wrong time

 

Sounds like it could be firing at the wrong time of the cycle. Were you running the ECU before you started all this work? if not are the Crank Angle Sensor degree settings correct in the software ie so it knows exactly when TDC is?

 

or if its had a remap could the setting have been accidently changed?

 

just some food for thought

 

That backs up my current thought.

 

The ECU has had the mapping copied from a 306 running the low boost. All I am doing is plugging it in. There may be some sort of interface issue, as you say, the ECU doesn't know where anything is. Hopefully I will know either way tomorrow.

[rich_gti6 0]

There may be some sort of interface issue, as you say, the ECU doesn't know where anything is. Hopefully I will know either way tomorrow.

 

The ECU does know where everything is - that's why your getting fuel and spark.

 

If the ECU doesn't see the correct wave-form from the crank [TDC sensor] and cam [phasing sensor for sequential injection] is won't spark, and I'm not sure if it will fuel either.

 

Let's hope this other ECU I'm sending does the trick in any case.

 

Although I am well and truly puzzled!

 

[TT205 42]

In case you have been drowning them - have you actually tried with a different set of (known good or brand new) plugs?

I've had plugs that never work again following persistant flooding

[welshpug 1,622]

GTi6 doesn't run wasted spark, its sequential ignition and Injection, its the S16 that runs Wasted spark and Batch Fired injection.

 

see what happens when the 2nd ECU arrives from Rich, bit baffling this

Edited May 7, 2008 by welshpug

[rich_gti6 0]

GTi6 doesn't run wasted spark, its sequential ignition and Injection, its the S16 that runs Wasted spark and Batch Fired injection.

 

see what happens when the 2nd ECU arrives from Rich, bit baffling this

 

Are you 100% sure on the wasted spark?

 

This is very strange - as he's got fuel, air, and spark - but no combustion.

 

I hope the ECU sorts it - however the ECU in Garry's car was tested on my car before I dispatched it - and it ran my engine fine.

 

Garry's ECU was unlcoked by a specialist ECU firm - and you can never be 100% sure what they've done to them. There's a risk it could of become immobilised when plugged into my car - but if it was locked he wouldn't get spark.

 

Very strange all this…

[tom_m 0]

Garry's ECU was unlcoked by a specialist ECU firm - and you can never be 100% sure what they've done to them. There's a risk it could of become immobilised when plugged into my car - but if it was locked he wouldn't get spark.

 

Very strange all this…

 

is your car still running a locked ecu with all the gubbins still there (transponder etc)? plugging an unlocked ecu back into a full loom seems to lock them again apparently

[m@robson 0]

is your car still running a locked ecu with all the gubbins still there (transponder etc)? plugging an unlocked ecu back into a full loom seems to lock them again apparently

 

I hope this is the problem, sounds like the when my ECU popped in my xsara i got a locked ECU from a scrappy and it did exactly this i should have thought of that earlier

 

Im garrys brother by the way i did the wiring for the 2nd fuel pump and extended the sensors, I just hope i didnt manage to get a wire in the wrong place!!!

Edited May 7, 2008 by m@robson

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

Are 6 looms similar to Mi looms as in connectors ? I plugged my Mi loom in once and plugged the Crank sensor into the TPS sensor and visa versa by accident and if i recall it gave the same/similar symptoms................just a thought

Hope you get it sorted.

[Dj_mini 7]

Are you sure you have fuel presure? Id check that you have the flow and return the correct way on the regulator.

[Garry 1]

Are you sure you have fuel presure? Id check that you have the flow and return the correct way on the regulator.

 

Pretty sure. On the fuel rail there is an 8mm inlet and a 10mm return.

The regulator is integral with the rail itself and I haven't meddled with it.

[Toddy 7]

Are you using the EXACT same injectors as the ECU has been remapped for, i.e. resistance/Impedance...just a thought

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

Have you tried the previous test of injectors in a jar? Its no good saying they are working due to the wet ends, they could be fubar and just leaking a little. If it was throwing fuel in when cranking but not ignitiing you would be able to smell fuel after a few minutes of trying down the exhaust. If you take the sparks out and crank it you should be easy able to smell fuel being thrown in when cranking also.

If you have some old injectors give them a try, even standard 6 ones, you should see some sort of life such as a splutter whn cranking that would prove timing and wiring is in good order and the fault is with injectors.

The ecu cannot be locked, if it were then you would not get a spark at all.

Wrong impedance as above would be a good point as mentioned above, find out what injectors the other ecu is running the map was copied from, if same as yours in terms of flow and impedance then at least you know.

Edited May 7, 2008 by Richie-Van-GTi

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm going from memory (being in Afghanistan), but I seem to remember the fuel rail lines are the other way round to what you've said above, i.e. larger 10mm is inlet & 5/16" / 8mm is return. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it, in which case it could be you have it plumbed the wrong way.

 

Waits to be ripped a new one........

[Garry 1]

Have you tried the previous test of injectors in a jar? Its no good saying they are working due to the wet ends, they could be fubar and just leaking a little. If it was throwing fuel in when cranking but not ignitiing you would be able to smell fuel after a few minutes of trying down the exhaust. If you take the sparks out and crank it you should be easy able to smell fuel being thrown in when cranking also.

If you have some old injectors give them a try, even standard 6 ones, you should see some sort of life such as a splutter whn cranking that would prove timing and wiring is in good order and the fault is with injectors.

The ecu cannot be locked, if it were then you would not get a spark at all.

Wrong impedance as above would be a good point as mentioned above, find out what injectors the other ecu is running the map was copied from, if same as yours in terms of flow and impedance then at least you know.

 

They are the same injectors, Bosch 440 cc/min. They are also brand new, although I know that they could still be faulty. I will test them tomorrow by firing them out of the car.

 

I have taken tomorrow off, I haven't given up yet!

[Garry 1]

I think I have the answer....

 

When looking into the fuel lines I came across this thread:

 

http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.ph...9&page=last

 

and this is how it has been plumbed in.

 

But having looked a little further I have found this thread:

 

http://www.306gti6.com/forum/showthread.ph...6452&page=1The Correct way!

 

I feel sick now

 

Sorry for wasting all of your time people and thanks for all the help and support.

[kate205gti 4]

so i was nearly right with my fuel pressure guess at least you sussed it! when you off to ring?

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

You can go to work tomorrow now then