[engine_work] 2.1 S16 Build Diary

[Doof 11]

But a cold engine needs to idle higher?

[Rob Turbo 3]

How are you using the idle valve? Closed loop or warmup only? I gave up on closed loop, get the engine warm with the idle valve closed and make it idle at a reasonable rpm using the fuel and spark tables and the throttle stop screw, then start playing with the idle valve for warmup only (I'm using ms1, not sure if it's the same with ms2, which I'm planning on using with my 16v turbo engine, so I'm not sure if it's all the same), my engine will idle from cold first thing on a morning, but for a short time between cold and running temp it will cut out, it's a bit annoying, I'll get round to sorting it one day, but I can live with it for now!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

+1 with no ICV. ITBs and still runs fine cold.

 

I didn't suggest removing it as Lewis had done all of the work to put it in, but decent mapping FROM COLD by a pro will get your engine fairly comfortable without one. I took my car to Emerald 2 hours early to let it cool down so he could map it from cold.

[James_R 3]

on emerald you can adjust the idle speed with a advance table seperate, so when it's warm you have it idling on not too much advance, so there's a good whack of air going in, then when it's cold you can have the ign ramped to 15-20deg to get the idle speed up.

 

Or you can do what I'm sure everyone else does, hold the throttle slightly open for 10-20secs then it will idle fine

[Doof 11]

Ok, i'm sold, time to plug the damn ICV up give that a try today!

 

Thanks again for the help everyone, i appreciate it!

[Doof 11]

Ok, this just isn't possible. I've got a rough map that lets it idle without an idle valve at around 1500 rpm. All well and good, i'll start fine tuning i think. Only the rpm will not stay stable, its anything from 1800 down to 1500 and then randomly it stalls.

 

This is something i just can't understand. At any given time, the throttle IS NOT moving so why on earth should the fuelling move or the spark timing? It shouldn't! So why is the idle wavering?!

 

Might write my own engine management software, sometimes feels like i could do a sodding better job!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I did suggest a simple component swap in a detailed reply earlier. You haven't mentioned if you've tried that yet.

 

It perhaps indicates by your last post that ICV is not to blame, and something else is causing the fluctuation. You'll only find that by doing a one-by-one swap. It's much easier than junking the whole lot.

[Doof 11]

Yes Sarty i think thats all i can do. Going to send the injectors away tomorrow to get them ASNU'd and check they're all ok. Sensors I believe to be ok because the logs show no fluctuating. I think it's just hard to admit to yourself that it's time to start pulling things off and testing new ones when you thought it was all complete.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I think it's just hard to admit to yourself that it's time to start pulling things off and testing new ones when you thought it was all complete.

 

Hey, even Sandy's ended up in that boat; several times recently. He's had to scrap pistons and argue QC matters with cam pulley suppliers. It may be a natural function of engine building.

 

In fact it wouldn't surprise me if even manufacturers go through all of this fault finding and commissioning mullarky. It could explain precisely why OE parts are often best, as the alternative is substandard and was tried earlier with no success. As a result, it may explain OE part pricing being so high.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

P.S. Jiggle things when it's running to try and find an air leak too.

Edited May 25, 2009 by DrSarty

[Doof 11]

I think you're right. This whole modifying and tuning scene is a dangerous area to be involved in. One component can break and cost you thousands in time and or parts. How i wish i had listened to Dreamweavers wise words in one of his posts he made after finishing his car. Something along the lines of us all being good at our chosen professions, don't try and be an engine builder / tuner when you're just not. Leave it to the professionals.

[Doof 11]

Something i dont like is that a megasquirt generated table gives VE values of 70% around idle (which is probably just way wrong) where as my values around idle and up to 2000rpm are just 15% or so and it still thinks its rich. I started wondering if my injectors were too big but 300cc should be fine, that is good for 240bhp which is a bit over what i was hoping, but not massively.

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Something i dont like is that a megasquirt generated table gives VE values of 70% around idle (which is probably just way wrong) where as my values around idle and up to 2000rpm are just 15% or so and it still thinks its rich. I started wondering if my injectors were too big but 300cc should be fine, that is good for 240bhp which is a bit over what i was hoping, but not massively.

 

Well injectors should not be a problem for stable idle.

 

I'm running 440cc ones and the 2.3 engine will idle nice at 900rpm, and that's with lairy cams.

Inlet lift 12.45mm, 3.8mm @TDC. Exhaust lift 11.8mm, 3.25mm @TDC.

[Doof 11]

Ok i think the injectors are something to do with it. I was running simultaneous fire with 4 injections per cycle and i changed it to 2 per cycle and its much smoother!

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Ok i think the injectors are something to do with it. I was running simultaneous fire with 4 injections per cycle and i changed it to 2 per cycle and its much smoother!

 

Well of course it might change the idle a little bit, but remember the factory 1.9 Mi16 is also running batched fire and that idles smooth.

[Doof 11]

Hmm, and there was me getting slightly excited that it idled a little better. How does your 2.3 run the injectors?

[Doof 11]

I did quite an interesting injector test earlier. In MS there's an injector test facility and i set it to first 500 1ms pulses (i think) and no fuel came out. Strange i thought. So i tried 500 pulses, still nothing. I then tried doubling the pulse width and it fired loads of fuel. Tried 1 again, nothing...1.1 loads of fuel!!

 

Basically it looks like my injectors actually take 1.1 or maybe 1.2 ms to open! I can't believe this can make such a huge difference but I just had a steady idle to within 20rpm of 1400rpm. Tasks for this week are to reduce the idle to around 1000 and hope that it'll pass an MOT!!

 

Maybe i don't need to phone Emerald just yet

 

EDIT - Oh, and it drove up the drive under its own power today, only 5 metres, but it made it!

 

pic of my DIY asnu setup haha, fairly even and definitely not a blocked injector causing trouble:

 

Edited May 25, 2009 by Doof

[B1ack_Mi16 67]

Yes I guess you might be onto something now.

Important to figure out how long time injectors use to open

 

My 2.3 is running "semi sequential" on emerald.

[Doof 11]

Ok, well i got it insured and took it out for its first drive the other day...to the MOT station and it passed, just! Anyway, having passed i'm just not happy with the amount of top end noise. It's really really loud, to the point where you can hear it driving along at 40+ mph over anything else!

 

It's basically really tappy and needs sorting before i go any further. I'm going to call Shenpar tomorrow and see about replacing the lifters. Perhaps with solid ones if i'm going to all the trouble.

 

What could it be after a fresh build? I can't remember exactly what i did when i took the lifters out but I bought the head second hand and so don't know how long its been since it was last used. I think i squeezed all the lifters of old oil but don't think i did anything else...should i have done?

 

What else can make that much noise? It got double valve springs and i wondered about how they could affect things.

 

Sigh, cars are bloody stressful money pits aren't they!!

 

Anyone wanna buy a kaaz diff? Can't afford to keep it if i'm to fix this thing now.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Something's simply wrong!

 

Taking cam covers off to get at hydraulic lifters of course means off with the cam belt and cams yet again. This is going to depress the crap out of you.

 

The lifters should fill again if your oil ways are all clear, but I was told (by PeterT) that you should refill them before assembly, such that they get back to nominal functioning again as quickly as possible. I'm not sure whether double valve springs are any noiser; but then again I'm not really sure why you have them. I thought they were part of the package for a car running solid lifters (which I've heard can be noisy anyway) such that you could rev to 8k+.

 

Did you dismantle the old lifters, clean and soak them and reface them before refit? Were any replaced? Did you use assembly paste in the head to run in the cams or even just fill it with loads of oil? Personally I think the noise will clear.

 

I'd focus on one thing at a time. They're only teething problems and will get sorted out if you're methodical.

[rubyna 4 1 Cars]

Can you pm me a price for the diff ?

Cheers, Luke...

[James_R 3]

I'd put in whatever Mr Taylor tells you to really.

[Doof 11]

Something's simply wrong!

 

Taking cam covers off to get at hydraulic lifters of course means off with the cam belt and cams yet again. This is going to depress the crap out of you.

 

The lifters should fill again if your oil ways are all clear, but I was told (by PeterT) that you should refill them before assembly, such that they get back to nominal functioning again as quickly as possible. I'm not sure whether double valve springs are any noiser; but then again I'm not really sure why you have them. I thought they were part of the package for a car running solid lifters (which I've heard can be noisy anyway) such that you could rev to 8k+.

 

Did you dismantle the old lifters, clean and soak them and reface them before refit? Were any replaced? Did you use assembly paste in the head to run in the cams or even just fill it with loads of oil? Personally I think the noise will clear.

 

I'd focus on one thing at a time. They're only teething problems and will get sorted out if you're methodical.

 

Cheers for the reply Sarty. I didn't take the lifters apart to be honest and I didn't prime them. Just took them out and squeezed the old oil out. Seems this is the price you pay for not being thorough enough. I did fill the cam cover with gearbox oil as suggested by peterT, and last time i whipped the cover off there was certainly enough oil in there, all lifters were fully submerged.

 

The reason i've got double springs is just because they were in the head when i bought it. I didn't even know til i pulled the valves out, was just a bonus really.

 

I'm off to Le Mans tomorrow so can forget about it for a while, thank god!

 

On a positive note, when driving to the MOT station it seemed pretty pokey just using about 20% throttle and 3000rpm max.

[James_m 0]

The lifters should sort themselves out after about 15 mins of running anyway, certainly they have in my experience.

Sure the head has'nt snapped a belt at some point and maybe your running with a slightly bent valve or two...?

Edited June 9, 2009 by James_m

[taylorspug 7]

Even with the oil just squeezed out ive never had one take more than a couple of minutes of running to come back up to pressure.

[fast_eddie 0]

I once stripped out all my followers and changed 3 that I thought had developed a nasty rattle-Put it all back together with the new followers and found that the exhaust manifold was loose!!!

 

Occasionally reved mine to 8k on standard lifters-like on the long hill at harewood or a short straight at Aintree for example.