205 1.6 Gti Converting To 1.9 Td

[jim21070 2]

about a 1000 rpm is the difference.

 

Yes, but that is only a part of the story. Diesel engines, however they are tuned, make their power low down in their rev range and have a very even torque spread. There is no advantage in redlining a diesel as this never equates to maxium power. The 1.9TD in standard tune comes up onto power at about 1800rpm and holds it pretty much to 4000rpm. After that it drops off quite sharply due mainly to the high compression ratio leading to a loss of efficiency through pumping losses (it takes considerable power to compress at high revs). There is not a lot you can do to overcome these pumping losses. On the other hand, a 1.6 GTi petrol motor is is just barely getting it's act together at 4000rpm and keeps going on to 6500-7000rpm.

 

So, we have two engines with radically different power characteristics. A 'box designed for a high revving petrol motor that develops maxium power and torque a fair way up it's rev range is not going to suit a diesel at all. Diesel boxes are designed so that all ratios in the 'box make best use of the characteristics of the engine.

 

Finally, keeping a diesel engine revving near it's redline (5000rpm) is both useless from a power point of view and drastically shortens its life. All you produce doing this is a lot of waste heat and smoke...

[Super Josh 4]

The radiator in a TD is identical except that it has two fans whereas the GTi only has one. It will be no problem to fit a second fan as the cowl is the same.

 

The TD radiator is actualy a lot thicker than the GTi one. The NA Diesel one is the same as the GTi. You're correct about the twin fans though

 

 

 

 

Josh

[Guest BrainFluid]

An S16 gearbox would be shorter on a diesel, like welshpug says, stick with a derv box.

 

Graham.

 

Thats what I'm saying, use a longer box to abuse all that torque through, use the acceleration right through every gear on a longer box.

 

 

Why does your engine smoke?

Mine did too initially, but then I added antismoke addittive to the oil and all the smoke stopped.

 

Tell me more about reboring 1.9 engine to bigger size because that's what I wanted to do.

 

We were talking tuning / overfueling smoke that you get on a 'tuned' to the max diesel.

 

If you want the most power out of a diesel you have to seriously over fuel the engine and will belch out particulate in the form of black smoke. I dont see the point in wasting that kind of fuel esp with a diesel it defeats the point imo...

 

With the bores, after looking at the specifications of the XUD blocks. The only difference between the XUD7 and the XUD9 is the size of the bore. XUD9 is 83mm and the XUD7 is smaller. Which made me think why spend on an XUD9 get an XUD7 cheaper and use the savings towards getting the bores bored out to the max. I'm guessing but that would leave you with a 2.2ltr XUD engine.

 

If I were you though I would just fit your XUD9T engine and box into the 205, you have it all to hand, do it, start finding your way around the 205 sit back and see what you think. It can only cost your your time.(your XUD9TE if it has an intercooler though)

 

EDIT: Oh yes, dude above mentioned the rad. You probably would get away with a normal diesel rad. You will need the double fans.

Edited November 8, 2006 by BrainFluid

[foreigner 0]

Yes, but that is only a part of the story. Diesel engines, however they are tuned, make their power low down in their rev range and have a very even torque spread. There is no advantage in redlining a diesel as this never equates to maxium power. The 1.9TD in standard tune comes up onto power at about 1800rpm and holds it pretty much to 4000rpm. After that it drops off quite sharply due mainly to the high compression ratio leading to a loss of efficiency through pumping losses (it takes considerable power to compress at high revs). There is not a lot you can do to overcome these pumping losses. On the other hand, a 1.6 GTi petrol motor is is just barely getting it's act together at 4000rpm and keeps going on to 6500-7000rpm.

 

So, we have two engines with radically different power characteristics. A 'box designed for a high revving petrol motor that develops maxium power and torque a fair way up it's rev range is not going to suit a diesel at all. Diesel boxes are designed so that all ratios in the 'box make best use of the characteristics of the engine.

 

Finally, keeping a diesel engine revving near it's redline (5000rpm) is both useless from a power point of view and drastically shortens its life. All you produce doing this is a lot of waste heat and smoke...

Thanx that's what I wanted to know.

Ok so what if I use gearbox of the NA 1.9. that should do good accelaration ? tell me what u think.

[foreigner 0]

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With the bores, after looking at the specifications of the XUD blocks. The only difference between the XUD7 and the XUD9 is the size of the bore. XUD9 is 83mm and the XUD7 is smaller. Which made me think why spend on an XUD9 get an XUD7 cheaper and use the savings towards getting the bores bored out to the max. I'm guessing but that would leave you with a 2.2ltr XUD engine.

 

If I were you though I would just fit your XUD9T engine and box into the 205, you have it all to hand, do it, start finding your way around the 205 sit back and see what you think. It can only cost your your time.(your XUD9TE if it has an intercooler though)

 

EDIT: Oh yes, dude above mentioned the rad. You probably would get away with a normal diesel rad. You will need the double fans.

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Regarding rad - In my 306 Dturbo 3 door there was only one.

 

Reboring -

-That's sound more like it (2.2) - what what about injection pump ? will it cope? - I think it will. I just need confirmation on that.

- Pistons ?? what engine to take it from. ( If I do similar to 2.1 I could use those but then I'd like to maximise that to 2.2 so I really need help on that)

Edited November 8, 2006 by foreigner

[DTORU 0 1 Cars]

Im going to bore out a 1.9td motor using 2.1 12 valve pistons which will give me a total of 2044cc not much but every little helps! thats 140cc more than stock and more compression, torque etc.

 

I thought id just try something a little different by modding a diesel to about 160bhp, if i do get the 160 figure it would be quite an animal.

 

If all fails and its not about 150-160bhp im going to put a modded s16 motor running webbers and a home made ignition system. I got a S16 motor comp with box for the right money.

 

Thanks

DTORU

[welshpug 1,622]

why not just use the 2.1 engine as a whole unit! been done and does fit!

 

would be chaper than the 1.9 as the cars they come in arent as desirable, but I cant see an engine costing more than £250 for a decent scrappie sourced unit anyway.

[DTORU 0 1 Cars]

why not just use the 2.1 engine as a whole unit! been done and does fit!

 

would be chaper than the 1.9 as the cars they come in arent as desirable, but I cant see an engine costing more than £250 for a decent scrappie sourced unit anyway.

 

 

No one has developed and hop up parts for them i.e fast road cam, etc.

The only pug motor to have been developed is the 1.9TD, ive seen a 306td with 165bhp.

 

Thanks

DTORU

[foreigner 0]

why not just use the 2.1 engine as a whole unit! been done and does fit!

 

would be chaper than the 1.9 as the cars they come in arent as desirable, but I cant see an engine costing more than £250 for a decent scrappie sourced unit anyway.

I had XM 2.1td and the engine looked bigger than 1.9td but if you say so then it must be true.

 

So what car did you use the engine from and what gearbox? and basically what problems you had and so on.

I am looking at ebay for engine I mean whole car and I take all I need from it and maybe sell the rest or scrap it.

 

 

Thanx

[jim21070 2]

Ok so what if I use gearbox of the NA 1.9. that should do good accelaration ? tell me what u think.

 

Yes, It'll give good acceleration but again, I'm not sure it'll really match a TD engine that well. The NA engine has a different power characteristic again. It develops a lot of power practically from tickover but by 3500rpm it has all gone. Even at 3000rpm it's pretty wheezy. It's high torque band is quite narrow in comparison to a TD and lower in the rev range.

 

Against this background, the gear ratios in an NA 'box are a little taller and more widely spaced than a TD box. At least that is how it is in my NA 205D Junior. 5th is much like an overdrive and useless below 50mph.

 

Stick with a TD 'box. Best of all worlds really. It has a set of ratios that well match the engine.

 

Rather than thinking about ratios and gearbox as a whole, a few experiments with final drive ratios may be worthwhile.

[jim21070 2]

I had XM 2.1td and the engine looked bigger than 1.9td but if you say so then it must be true.

 

It is bigger. Mainly around the cylinder head because IIRC, it has a three valve head. Access is difficult even in a Xantia so in a 205 bay it would be exceedingly tight. Also the gearbox is different (not a BE) and has a hydraulic clutch.

[jim21070 2]

Im going to bore out a 1.9td motor using 2.1 12 valve pistons which will give me a total of 2044cc not much but every little helps! thats 140cc more than stock and more compression, torque etc.

 

I thought id just try something a little different by modding a diesel to about 160bhp, if i do get the 160 figure it would be quite an animal.

 

DTORU

 

Good on yer! I like the idea but take care. Are you sure there is enough meat in the block to take the overbore. Diesels are very much more highly stressed and overthin cylinder walls will not be good.

 

How about using a 2.1 block and bottom end with a 1.9TD head?

 

Watch the compression ratio. You really should take steps to maintain it at the same figure as the 1.9. Otherwise you run the risk of destructive detonation and high rpm pumping losses that get very silly...

 

Gotta be worth a try though. After all, if it goes bang, so what, theyre are millions in the scrappy. I'm pleased to see a bit of diesel experimentation...

[Guest BrainFluid]

What a good thread this has turned out to be. Yes your right jim (but not as we know it, scrape them off jim) it is good to see diesel experimentation.

 

I would dearly like to join in

 

Edit: Ahem. keeping mouth shut for a while.

 

Nate.

Edited November 9, 2006 by BrainFluid

[DTORU 0 1 Cars]

What a good thread this has turned out to be. Yes your right jim (but not as we know it, scrape them off jim) it is good to see diesel experimentation.

 

I would dearly like to join in

 

It would be good to clear up some thing about the whole XU and XUD 'what is the same?' and the 'what isnt the same?' malarky.

 

like;

 

1: Is it true that XU blocks can be used as XUD blocks?

Nate.

 

Id asume no as xu engines like the 1.6 / 1.9 gti are alloy blocks and would not be able to cope with the high compression that a diesel needs.

[Guest BrainFluid]

EDIT: Ahem. I really am going to keep my mouth shut for a while longer.

Edited November 9, 2006 by BrainFluid

[foreigner 0]

405 1.9 td ????

 

Is the engine and gearbox the same as 306 or will it fit my 205. Just bidding on ebay for 405 1.9td and only 2 hours to go.

[jim21070 2]

405 1.9 td ????

 

Is the engine and gearbox the same as 306 or will it fit my 205. Just bidding on ebay for 405 1.9td and only 2 hours to go.

 

Yep, essentially identical if it's from a late 405.

[foreigner 0]

Didn't get 405 what about xantia??

[DTORU 0 1 Cars]

Citroens and peugeots all use the same motor, the 405,406,ZX and xantias all use the same motors but with extra bits bolted on for car specific gadgets .i.e hydroelastic/Hydrolic suspension pump is only on the xanita.

 

Thanks

DTORU

[jim21070 2]

Citroens and peugeots all use the same motor, the 405,406,ZX and xantias all use the same motors but with extra bits bolted on for car specific gadgets .i.e hydroelastic/Hydrolic suspension pump is only on the xanita.

 

Thanks

DTORU

 

The only thing to watch with a Xantia engine is that it has no vacuum pump for the brake servo (no need of one as the brakes are powered from the main hydraulics). The place where the pump goes, on the end of the camshaft, is blanked off with a cover. I believe that if the cover is removed, a vacuum pump can be fitted with no issues.

 

The Xantia has a front-mounted intercooler, a big one that sits in front of the coolant rad, unlike the 405/306 top mount.

[foreigner 0]

so i could use xantia engine and gearbox on 205 or not?

[yeti-dj 7]

hello, has any one fitted the front intercooler from the xantia to the wee 205 turbo diesel, if so was it easy to do as want to keep the car looking standard from the outside and dont want a cut up front bumper.

 

cheers people.....

[jim21070 2]

so i could use xantia engine and gearbox on 205 or not?

 

Yes, absolutely. As long as you rig up a vacuum pump for the servo by using a vacuum pump from any diesel Pug or Cit ZX that has the pump bolted directly on the end of the head. You'll have to remove the old Citroen hydraulic pump and pressure regulator/accumulator sphere and select a different size auxillary drive belt as it'll now no longer be driving the hydraulic pump. If you do use a Xantia engine, let me have first refusal on the pump and pressure regulator please

 

Personally, I'd replace the hydraulic pump with a PAS pump and install power steering. I think diesels need it.

 

There are no other significant differences.

 

hello, has any one fitted the front intercooler from the xantia to the wee 205 turbo diesel, if so was it easy to do as want to keep the car looking standard from the outside and dont want a cut up front bumper.

 

I'm sure the intercooler can be accommodated in the front of the Pug as it is about the same height as a 205 rad and just a little wider. The 205 rad can come forward a touch as there is more room in front of an XUD, not having an inlet manifold to foul the rad. Also, the in and out elbows on the Xantia intercooler are on the sides and the air pipes kind of "hug" the rad. You should ab able to easily use all the Xantia turbo trunking and make the job look really neat. The only thing you'll not use is the Xantia airbox as the 205 battery will be in the way. Use a cone type "performace" item instead.

[foreigner 0]

good news and bad or bad news and good news.

 

On my very bumpy trip to stanstead ,missing flight and trip back when my car broke down on first trafic light it gave a good kick start to the project.

 

- so everyone watch out for me on the roads (around Watford, Hemel Hempstead and Stevenage)

 

Thanx for the tips about the xantia bits and bobs.

 

 

- i just though that I could use electric vacum pump and electric powersteering and have the option to put them in empty spaces (eventhough there will probably no left), I want to put second battery and second tank instead of spare to have more power onboard and have some redundancy since I want to have 240v onboard as well (have I ever mentioned that).

 

- just seen excelent picture in one of the mags about two pugs with roof boxes so I don't have to be ashamed to do that anymore (that's where the spare tyre goes - probably).

 

- so what I am going to do is put my rusty/noisy/oily/thirsty/1.9 td in the pug if i don't get better one before that, if that happens I'll rebuilt the old to better spec to 2.2 and with 3 valve head eventhough someone mentioned about not enough space. I don't mind beating the bulkhead back and so on.

 

- I hope that I'll be finished before x-mas

Edited November 14, 2006 by foreigner

[PUGugly 0]

- so everyone watch out for me on the roads (around Watford, Hemel Hempstead and Stevenage)

 

- so what I am going to do is put my rusty/noisy/oily/thirsty/1.9 td in the pug if i don't get better one before that, if that happens I'll rebuilt the old to better spec to 2.2 and with 3 valve head eventhough someone mentioned about not enough space. I don't mind beating the bulkhead back and so on.

 

Have you tryed Martins yard, last time I was up there he had several TD engines in? Would be your best bet locally unless you try A5, but they can be expensive!!

 

Look forward to see you flying round H/H!!

Edited November 15, 2006 by PUGugly