Bike Bodies - What Is The Real Difference Compared To Aftermarket Bodi

[veloce200 3]

If they are max'd out I would have expected the mapper to convey that to him? Stranger things have happened though.

 

yeah exactly, some people think an injector can run 100% duration and forget about duty cycle. As an example my 1.9 pug was running rich on my first home made map - around 11.5:1 - the injectors were open over 80% at this level. this is a std 1.9 8v so I think if the MI injectors are the same then they will be severely stretched - what is their flow rate?

[smckeown 1]

Aren't they 214cc, which is 171bhp @ 80% duty. To be honest Simon, i'm VERY surprised you stayed with the standard ones. Thought the mi16 injector rates/limits was common knowledge.

 

I sold some gti6 reconditioned ones recently that would have been ideal.

[veloce200 3]

Aren't they 214cc, which is 171bhp @ 80% duty. To be honest Simon, i'm VERY surprised you stayed with the standard ones. Thought the mi16 injector rates/limits was common knowledge.

 

I sold some gti6 reconditioned ones recently that would have been ideal.

 

 

if they are only 214cc they will be maxed out on a std engine.

(214cc x 4) / 4.6 = 148 hp at 80% !!! the 4.6 figure comes from Walkers book.

 

this site calculates that in order to generate 180hp you need 236cc min. (based on .4 BSFC)

 

so i reckon we've found the problem - trumpets and injectors!

Edited October 12, 2006 by veloce200

[smckeown 1]

well i've never seen that type of calculation before. Plus those figures don't make sense, i mean, how can the mi16 achieve 160bhp+ on those injectors using those algorithms. I've seen the 80% suty algorithm used time and time again successfully

[Sandy 189]

It depends on line pressure, aren't they rated at 214cc @ 3bar? If so at 4.5 bar they'll be flowing roughly 260cc.

[veloce200 3]

well i've never seen that type of calculation before. Plus those figures don't make sense, i mean, how can the mi16 achieve 160bhp+ on those injectors using those algorithms. I've seen the 80% suty algorithm used time and time again successfully

 

well the flow figures are based at one fuel pressure - unless you actually remove an injector and fire it into a measuring jug you don't know what it is delivering. People who tune their car's for more power more often than not exceed 80% and probably increase fuel pressure to.

 

are you just taking the injector flow and multipling by .8 then? I've not seen that published anywhere?

Edited October 12, 2006 by veloce200

[smckeown 1]

slightly O/T then. I'm confused about my injectors. They are Vaux Cream's and are tested at 260cc/min @ 3 bar. Yet my car is running at 4bar pressure and according to KMS software i'm close to max duration when running 166bhp. Wierd....

 

Injector testing results

[veloce200 3]

slightly O/T then. I'm confused about my injectors. They are Vaux Cream's and are tested at 260cc/min @ 3 bar. Yet my car is running at 4bar pressure and according to KMS software i'm close to max duration when running 166bhp. Wierd....

 

Injector testing results

 

punch 166 hp into here keep BSFC at .5 - after all you have high compression, big cams and bodies so BSFC will be higher, and you can see why. it may be running rich - did the RR tell you what the AFR was at WOT?

[smckeown 1]

yes here http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/images/2058v...%208v%20map.jpg

 

Could be interesting...

[Dream Weaver 2]

carb bellmouths should not be used on fuel injection set ups - this could be the reason !!! stick some proper injection trumpets on - worth a try

 

also the injectors may well be maxed out - what is their flow rate ?

 

The problem is, you can't really get trumpets for the bike bodies. They do ones for the bikes but they are tiny 10mm trumpets, and i've seen the Weber ones used on Zetec's in the past to good effect so assumed these would be OK. The other option would be some Jenvey trumpets, but i'm not sure how I could fit them onto the bodies.

 

Aren't they 214cc, which is 171bhp @ 80% duty. To be honest Simon, i'm VERY surprised you stayed with the standard ones. Thought the mi16 injector rates/limits was common knowledge.

 

I sold some gti6 reconditioned ones recently that would have been ideal.

 

Well I did buy some Saab injectors rated at approx 320/360cc I think, but when fitted they were fuelling too much and fouling the plugs, so to get it running I had to use the std Mi injectors to begin with.

 

I may try and get some GTI-6 injectors to see how they do, or I may even try the Saabs again for the RR this weekend.

 

I will probably still go the KMS route everntualy, but I would like to get these working first just to prove a point that they can work.

[veloce200 3]

yes here http://www.track-monkey.co.uk/images/2058v...%208v%20map.jpg

 

Could be interesting...

that was first time around wasn't it ? How about Mikeanics? certainly dips to 12 which is pretty rich. IMO for a track car you want min fuel and min spark to deliver mean best power. No point chasing 1-2 hp if it means more fuel and spark unless it is a race car.

[smckeown 1]

I may try and get some GTI-6 injectors to see how they do, or I may even try the Saabs again for the RR this weekend.

 

change of injector = remap doesn't it ?

 

Anyway, we are trying to asctertain if the existing injectory are restricting your power......any comments. I'd say so, but this program julian has posted is interesting

[veloce200 3]

change of injector = remap doesn't it ?

 

not necessarily. With Emerald you can just change the injector and the ecu will rescale the duration so the fueling will remain the same. However it would mean accurate measurement of both injectors manually before plugging the figures in. however an hour on the rroad would ensure it was ok at WOT

[veloce200 3]

The problem is, you can't really get trumpets for the bike bodies. They do ones for the bikes but they are tiny 10mm trumpets, and i've seen the Weber ones used on Zetec's in the past to good effect so assumed these would be OK. The other option would be some Jenvey trumpets, but i'm not sure how I could fit them onto the bodies.

Well I did buy some Saab injectors rated at approx 320/360cc I think, but when fitted they were fuelling too much and fouling the plugs, so to get it running I had to use the std Mi injectors to begin with.

 

I may try and get some GTI-6 injectors to see how they do, or I may even try the Saabs again for the RR this weekend.

 

I will probably still go the KMS route everntualy, but I would like to get these working first just to prove a point that they can work.

 

 

make them fit ! it's certainly got to be easier than making the bodies fit the head.

have you got the other injectors? Measure flow of both sets at line pressure on car and then fit them and rescale - heh presto !

[TT205 42]

How about making some trumpets out of exhaust pipe

[Dream Weaver 2]

I'll see what the RR throws up on Saturday then decide what to do from there.

[phatgti 0]

Did i sell you injectors with the engine? they had just been refurbished and tested by Lucas.

 

I'm fairly sure i RR'd that engine quite early in the year so atmospheric conditions could have played a part but then 2 different rolling roads give 2 different results.

 

It's a mystery to me also.

[sonofsam 5]

How about making some trumpets out of exhaust pipe

 

If you go and see your local metal spinning firm, they should be able to make anything you want..at a price of course.

 

Example:

[Dream Weaver 2]

Did i sell you injectors with the engine? they had just been refurbished and tested by Lucas.

 

I'm fairly sure i RR'd that engine quite early in the year so atmospheric conditions could have played a part but then 2 different rolling roads give 2 different results.

 

It's a mystery to me also.

 

You did include a set of injectors, but I can't remember which ones they are as I have 2 set now I'm fairly sure they are fitted with the ones you included.

 

 

If you go and see your local metal spinning firm, they should be able to make anything you want..at a price of course.

 

Example:

 

They look nice, what application are they for? All depends on cost. This setup has cost nearly £500 now, so another £100 for trumpets will take it up near KMS money and i'd rather just buy them than spend any more on this setup.

[Sandy 189]

slightly O/T then. I'm confused about my injectors. They are Vaux Cream's and are tested at 260cc/min @ 3 bar. Yet my car is running at 4bar pressure and according to KMS software i'm close to max duration when running 166bhp. Wierd....

 

Injector testing results

Vauxhall 744's (20XE creams) are rated at 214cc@2.5 bar, so equates to roughly 235cc@3 bar or 271cc@4 bar. If you're running 4 bar, that means you're running about 72% duty cycle on an average AFR, so maybe it's slightly rich?

[PumaRacing 1]

Cheers Sandy, all good valid points, but none applies to my setup really.

 

1. My runners are all equal length and ported to the bodies.

 

2. The silicon joiners are present, but they are flat and smooth with the inlet manifold/TB's so there are no spaces between inlet face and TB's.

 

3. The tract length is pretty much as per KMS/Jenvey

 

4. I had read that injectors closer to the valves would produce better low down torque/mid range.

 

5. They are 42mm bore, enough for over 200bhp according to Jenvey.

 

6. Std Weber radiused bellmouths

 

7. Lowered radiator, so air flows straight through the grill and modified cowling into the filter, ambient inlet temps when running.

 

Hence why I'm stumped

 

I concur with everything Sandy said but you appear not to be suffering any of those usual problems. There's nothing inherently wrong with bike bodies. The 192 bhp 1.8 Zetec I mentioned in previous posts is running bike bodies on a home made manifold. To remind you of the spec, bog std 1800 Zetec with fast road cams and a 4 branch manifold and system. No head work, std compression ratio. It produces exactly what you'd expect compared to other engines on DCOEs and TBs.

 

Garry's (RallyAX) 100 bhp per litre TU is on bike bodies.

 

Either you're overlooking something obvious, although it doesn't sound like it, or the mapping/fueling is wrong. Are you definitely getting full throttle and do the butterflies/spindles look unusual or restrictive? Have you done a compression test?

[Dream Weaver 2]

Defo getting full throttle, and the butterflies and spindles look fine. I haven't done a compression test on the engine.

 

I have a feeling its the injectors, as they're the std GTI items at 214cc at 3 bar.

 

How about the filter having too much oil in it, I may have put too much on before installing it?

[veloce200 3]

Defo getting full throttle, and the butterflies and spindles look fine. I haven't done a compression test on the engine.

 

I have a feeling its the injectors, as they're the std GTI items at 214cc at 3 bar.

 

How about the filter having too much oil in it, I may have put too much on before installing it?

 

IMO shouldn't matter they need oil to work and the engine will quickly pull any excess through, was the 180 hp figure on std induction on the same RR as the 174 hp with TB's?

[Dream Weaver 2]

IMO shouldn't matter they need oil to work and the engine will quickly pull any excess through, was the 180 hp figure on std induction on the same RR as the 174 hp with TB's?

 

It was on std induction, BUT and here's part of the problem, the engine was in a different car on a different RR

 

This is more about the low power/torque figure than the comparison of power from before/after as I know that those figures can't realistically be compared.

 

My old std Mi engine made 166/134, current engine made 180bhp when it was built (by Wayne(phatgti)) and in another std car, and made 173/127 in mine with the TB's

 

Going back to the injectors, the set that Wayne provided with the engine as mentioned above isn't fitted, and the current injectors were the ones from my old Mi unit - they don't have the std Bosch part no on for the Mi/GTI (0280 150 762), and IIRC when I last looked, the number they do have on them relates to 194cc flow which may cause even more problems??

 

The first job is to put the cleaned Mi injectors I have here in place, then see what happens on Saturday.

Edited October 12, 2006 by Dream Weaver

[veloce200 3]

It was on std induction, BUT and here's part of the problem, the engine was in a different car on a different RR

 

This is more about the low power/torque figure than the comparison of power from before/after as I know that those figures can't realistically be compared.

 

My old std Mi engine made 166/134, current engine made 180bhp when it was built (by Wayne(phatgti)) and in another std car, and made 173/127 in mine with the TB's

 

Going back to the injectors, the set that Wayne provided with the engine as mentioned above isn't fitted, and the current injectors were the ones from my old Mi unit - they don't have the std Bosch part no on for the Mi/GTI (0280 150 762), and IIRC when I last looked, the number they do have on them relates to 194cc flow which may cause even more problems??

 

The first job is to put the cleaned Mi injectors I have here in place, then see what happens on Saturday.

well in my mind they are way too small and probably the root cause of the problem. i wouldn't bother with MI ones - get the saab ones in there. 330cc is good for 220+ HP so will be a good match.