Group A 8v 1900 Engine Specs

[SimonJ 2]

Was Isla Cox's 205 race car not accepted to be a genuine 210-ish?

We're getting away from the question though as a Group A engine will have standard valve sizes and crank material, limiting power to little more than 200bhp I would have thought. Furthermore GpA is (generally) a rally category so the cam will not be full race, making it very unlikely to be over 200bhp.

Megster, if you do buy the engine, how much would you be looking for your old one?

Edited September 11, 2006 by SimonJ

[Guest Megster]

The reason I asked the original question is that I'm seriously thinking about having a good race engine built. I already have a buyer for my 154bhp SBC engine and was thinking of going to someone like Mark Shillaber, Longman, SBC about having a new, more poweful, engine built - then this low miles Group A motor comes up for sale.

 

I want something with at least 180- 190 bhp. I think that that amount of power, coupled this a well sort chassis should be enough in my particular championship.

 

What would you look for spec wise to acheive this kind of power with twin 45s?

 

Cheers everyone - Alun

[PumaRacing 1]

I'm also interested in the spec of these 220-240 BHP 8 Valvers and whether it is purely down to the increased displacement mentioned?!

 

Nope. The effects of extra displacement are small unless they allow more valve area and if so the results can be predicted fairly easily. Certainly the bigger bore 2 litre iron block engine will allow bigger valves but if you add all relevant factors together I'd say that about 15 bhp extra is the most that a large capacity iron block could make over and above a 1.9.

 

I Hillclimb and run a 205 with a Longmans engine on throttle bodies with maniflow manifold, fully mapped fuel and ignition that was fully rebuilt with ZERO miles on the clock. Previously this engine was used in the Castle Coombe race series.

 

It IS to be fair a 1905 NOT a 1998cc or 2070cc

 

We originally ran it with a 'silly' race cam but have replaced this with something more sensible to (successfully) get more torque without losing too much outright power.

 

However, we have no-where near the horse power being discussed here and realistically there is little else that could be done to this engine and still run pump fuel

 

Exactly, unless you subscribe to the view that somewhere out there there exists a 'magic' camshaft which defies the laws of physics or a 'magic' cylinder head specialist who get more flow out of a head than anyone else or than is possible from the laws of fluid dynamics. Or just a purveyor of fairy dust that you can sprinkle over the engine under the full moon.

 

100 bhp per litre is still a very respectable target for an 8v engine of this sort of capacity. Even more so from an 8v engine with a small bore, long stroke and consequent valve size and shrouding issues. David Vizard got 210 bhp out of the much more tunable 2 litre Pinto after years of work but that engine has a 10% bigger bore, 10% smaller stroke, no shrouding due to the inclined valves and much bigger valves in race tune than a 1.9 XU.

 

Dave Walker had a go too but never quite matched Vizard's results even with TB's and eight injectors.

 

The Pinto engine still serves as a good benchmark for what is possible from other 2 litre ish 8v engines.

 

From a 1905 ally block I'd say 190 bhp would be a very creditable result and 200 the most you're going to see.

 

From a big bore 2 litre iron block if the most possible is done to get extra valve area into the bigger bore I'd say 200 bhp would be very creditable and 215 the limit. There might be a tiny amount of wiggle room in there for dry sumped engines which could be worth about 5 bhp from the reduced oil drag.

 

As you found though, these ultimate peak bhp targets might still not be the quickest way round a track if they sacrifice too much of the torque curve. Once you get to within about 5% of an engines ultimate power potential you tend to just be trading advantages in one part of the torque curve for disadvantages in another. The overall speed of the car doesn't necessarily alter much.

 

Out of interest, what was the 'silly' race cam and what was the one that replaced it?

[TT205 42]

The 'silly' cam came with the engine, I was told it was 302 degree and the part number but ? it is wrong as I don't think it exists!

 

Replaced with a Catcams 4900343 - 288 degrees

 

Dave

[TT205 42]

Found the info:

 

Cam was allegedly a Piper 235

12.5 lift 302 degrees

 

But - I can't find details of a 235 so think this is wrong?

[phatgti 0]

It may have been a pattern they created for the owner who will "own" the master for the camshaft.

[PumaRacing 1]

The reason I asked the original question is that I'm seriously thinking about having a good race engine built. I already have a buyer for my 154bhp SBC engine and was thinking of going to someone like Mark Shillaber, Longman, SBC about having a new, more poweful, engine built - then this low miles Group A motor comes up for sale.

 

I want something with at least 180- 190 bhp. I think that that amount of power, coupled this a well sort chassis should be enough in my particular championship.

 

What would you look for spec wise to acheive this kind of power with twin 45s?

 

An Mi16

 

 

The 'silly' cam came with the engine, I was told it was 302 degree and the part number but ? it is wrong as I don't think it exists!

 

Replaced with a Catcams 4900343 - 288 degrees

 

Dave

 

Would I be a million miles out then if I predicted that your rolling road results give you a flywheel bhp in the 170's?

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

There are so many variables in the group A spec engine, does it have standard or 83.5mm liners & pistons?

 

What cam has it got fitted? If its a Pugsport one is it max torque, performance or max top end?

 

The possibilities are even more widespread if it was built by an aftermarket specialist using non-PTS parts so its fruitless question without knowing the actual spec of the engine you have been offered & even then its only speculation on the power it might develop as the Peugeot group A cars didn't run the standard injection system afaik.

 

Graham.

[pdd144c 0]

Please post some dyno sheets then

 

Will be up in the next few hours.

[TT205 42]

An Mi16

Would I be a million miles out then if I predicted that your rolling road results give you a flywheel bhp in the 170's?

 

 

PM me a working email and I'll send you details

[Craigb 2]

Peugeot group A cars didn't run the standard injection system afaik.

 

Graham.

A zytek programable ecu was used on the works cars

[PumaRacing 1]

PM me a working email and I'll send you details

 

Tried to but the forum is slow today and keeps crashing on me so I'm not sure if they got through.

[veloce200 3]

ive never heard of one being under 2000cc in sprints and hillclimbs. Its illegal for the class anyway as it was never in a mk1/2 escort so breaks other rules

 

 

if it is over 2000cc then it will be in the class above. The 205 block is generally regarded as being acceptable within the letter of the regs. The VW "bubble" block would not. The MI alloy block would, the MI Iron block wouldn't (although you see them racing - if they started winning then people start complaining!)

[pdd144c 0]

[veloce200 3]

ive never heard of one being under 2000cc in sprints and hillclimbs. Its illegal for the class anyway as it was never in a mk1/2 escort so breaks other rules

 

 

if it is over 2000cc then it will be in the class above. The 205 block is generally regarded as being acceptable within the letter of the regs. The VW "bubble" block would not. The MI alloy block would, the MI Iron block wouldn't (although you see them racing - if they started winning then people start complaining!)

[PumaRacing 1]

What capacity is this engine you've posted a graph for?

[pdd144c 0]

2092cc

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Veloce200: Its not as it breaks one of the L rules in the Blue Book, 12.5.1 or something. The one that states "the block must be externally identifiable as one originally available in the vehicle". The 205 block has 205 stamped on it and also I think the oil temp sensor is in a different place and therefore it is not visually the same on the outside. To my knowledge no one has been protested out of my class for this and I dont mind them using it as its hard to find a decent Pinto block I believe but the ones that then stroke/bore them to 2.4 are taking the p*ss still running in 2 litre

[veloce200 3]

Veloce200: Its not as it breaks one of the L rules in the Blue Book, 12.5.1 or something. The one that states "the block must be externally identifiable as one originally available in the vehicle". The 205 block has 205 stamped on it and also I think the oil temp sensor is in a different place and therefore it is not visually the same on the outside. To my knowledge no one has been protested out of my class for this and I dont mind them using it as its hard to find a decent Pinto block I believe but the ones that then stroke/bore them to 2.4 are taking the p*ss still running in 2 litre

 

agreed but it is close enough to be deemed as not having an advantage. a lot of series make that reg clearer and specifically mention 205 block by name. MI16 alloy is not same as 8v - but ostensibly it is. For example 20v VW block is very similar to 16v KR but different enough to be deemed as illegible.

go on get the 2.4 runners stripped !

Edited September 13, 2006 by veloce200

[VisaGTi16v 1]

hmm I always thought 16v looked the same externally (internally irrelevant), I best be quiet heh but yer I have no problem with the 205 escorts. Funny when you get someone trying to enter a vauxhall engined one though!

[Guest Megster]

PumaRacing,

 

The way I understand the rules, I'm not allowed to use an Mi16 in the ROAD MODIFIED class. I'm not Even allowed to use a complete Mi16 engine in the Mod Prod class - I'd have to ue an Mi head matched to the original bottom end to get in.

 

In the Welsh championship if you turned up with an Mi16 (head and bottom end)engined 205, you'd be placed is sports libre class up against all manner of silly machinery.

 

Escort boys get away with entering 16v n/a YB cossy engined cars in Mod Prod class as the argue that the YB bottom end is essentially the same as a Pinto. You'r talking 260bhp in that chassis. My father in law has a 263bhp Mk1 (albeit a 2.4) and 16v 205s can't live with him, especially at the longer hill/circuits.

 

It makes more sense for me to stick in Road Modified with a REALLY good 8v.

 

AJ

Edited September 13, 2006 by Megster

[veloce200 3]

PumaRacing,

 

The way I understand the rules, I'm not allowed to use an Mi16 in the ROAD MODIFIED class. I'm not Even allowed to use a complete Mi16 engine in the Mod Prod class - I'd have to ue an Mi head matched to the original bottom end to get in.

 

In the Welsh championship if you turned up with an Mi16 (head and bottom end)engined 205, you'd be placed is sports libre class up against all manner of silly machinery.

 

Escort boys get away with entering 16v n/a YB cossy engined cars in Mod Prod class as the argue that the YB bottom end is essentially the same as a Pinto. You'r talking 260bhp in that chassis. My father in law has a 263bhp Mk1 (albeit a 2.4) and 16v 205s can't live with him, especially at the longer hill/circuits.

 

It makes more sense for me to stick in Road Modified with a REALLY good 8v.

 

AJ

 

Mod Prod rules WILL generally allow MI16 alloy block - it's a lot more similar to a 8v block than a 205 ford block. Anyway after watching at Lydden the other day I saw an 8v 1600 pug get the measure of a 2.2 220hp Escort - Pug chassis is superior - just need the right pilot. So I'd save the money on an MI engine and spend it on lightening the chassis, best tyres you can afford and a day with Nigel Mansell.

[kman1600 0]

Hi,

 

I know it's a bit off the original topic but in a way its refreshing to see that the same issues around class illegibility in other championships to the one I compete in. Our capacity break in road going is at 1700cc, i.e. just split into above and below 1700. Unfortunately our motorsport association, ANICC (Association of Northern Ireland Car Clubs) has chosen not to follow the blue book definitions or to try and keep what they have written current. You could, and people do, drive a horse and cart through what is currently written. There is, I believe, a reluctance to try and correct the issues because our events are undersubscribed and the fear is that you will p*ss the current competitors off if you tighten the rules. Im all for a bit of ingenuity and rule pushing but without a solid frame work of enforceable rules I feel the sport suffers.

 

Tim

[VisaGTi16v 1]

Megster, as Veloc says, only rule in Modprod is that the block has to look identical externally. Apparently it now seems a mi16 block doesnt look 100% the same as a 8v but its close enough taht no one kicks up a fuss as 99% of escorts run 205 blocks which look more different to pintos etc.

 

Keeping vaguely on topic, I normally post similar times to the top road going 8v 205 around here which has a ~200bhp Longman engine. My Visa mi16 is in modprod though so is lighter and on better tyres but I have no lsd and only 166bhp. Veloc: I will be at Lydden on the 7th and 28th October for a pair of sprints presuming I fix the car before then so I can do the other 2 booked in before as well. Bonnet flew open when testing last night! http://www.sevenoaksmotorclub.com/iB_html/...1695-screen.jpg

[PumaRacing 1]

2092cc

 

Torque looks reasonable for an 8v engine then at 76 ft lbs per litre. Transmission losses at peak rpm are very high and the curves look a bit spiky up there. Applying my normal equation to the 180 bhp wheel figure gives us 211 flywheel which is now back in the ballpark of what I suggested is possible.

 

Owen Developments used to show very reasonable transmission loss figures but I found out recently that they swapped their first rollers for a 4wd system and everything changed. I suspect these figures were taken on the new machine and the old one would not have shown flywheel numbers anything like so high.

 

I'm sure when Mattsav gets his engine dyno up and running we'll quickly find out where the truth of some of these power claims lie.