Lower Strut Brace For Mi'd 205 Or 309

[jonnie205 1]

Running slick and 450 lbs spring may cause a slight flex in the subframe but i would be very very suprised if anybody noticed it on the road. The subframe is never going to flex so much to change the geometry of the suspension which would lead to any change in handling. In the wet you certainly dont want one and people even disconect the front arb to help. If running huge power on trcak with big slicks etc then maybe the brace will help in some small way but i just cannot see the subframe moving that much that it would cause any issues

[Livelee 0]

This thread is going back and forth like a tennis match ;-)

 

I've got a 309 track car and want to know if I should add a lower brace. I'll be running slicks on standard wheels. My mind is made up on adding an upper brace but still unsure I need the lower.

[smckeown 1]

what do you expect from a forum ? People have different opinions, and also people have specific experiences.

 

At the end of the day the only definitive way to see if you'll benefit from one will be to try it out.

 

So far jon is the only person I know who has used one and liked it. Is there any more out there ? (i too need convincing)

 

Sean

[pugrallye 0]

just knowing from scoobies how much difference lower braces make, cures lots of understeer problems, and im sure on 205 race cars they used to weld fitch plates into the subframe to stop them flexing, so clearly they do flex!!

[Livelee 0]

At the end of the day the only definitive way to see if you'll benefit from one will be to try it out.

 

I woundn't know a good car from bad mate. I've had the car a week and never done a track day. Booked up for Silverstone on 13th Feb. I just want to start with the best "package" I can.

Edited January 2, 2006 by Livelee

[Jonmurgie 2]

Well as stated futher up the thread, it's a cheap mod to try... if you feel you like the difference then keep it, if not then flog it... simple!

 

It's just the the people who haven't TRIED it and say they are pointless are foolish

[d-9 0]

Wanna buy a +20bhp mod for your engine mate, I tried it and it really improved throttle response, check here for my ebay ad...

 

I cant see how adding a bit of metal that is much less substantial than the front subframe will stop the front subframe flexing, if it does indeed flex in the first place. Sorry, but basic engineering comes into play...fill scaffold pole with redbull cans...scafold pole doesnt flex when you push on it...money well spent yeh?

[smckeown 1]

it's far from your first priority put it that way, there are many more things further up the list. plenty of searchin for you to do, there are some well sorted track cars on here to look around/read up on

[Alastairh 47]

Definately worthwhile if you are track dayer or racer.!!!

 

 

try it out, it's peanuts on the mondey side, if you dont like it, ebay it on.

 

Best advice.

 

I think i will give it a shot once the car is done.

 

But D-9 have you tried one, Yes or No?

 

Your making big claims it won't do anything when you haven't tried one.

 

Surely a bit of strenthening helps a track / race car, like the concept of a roll cage? - Basic engineering

 

Alastair

Edited January 2, 2006 by Alastairh

[smckeown 1]

Surely a bit of strenthening helps a track / race car, like the concept of a roll cage? - Basic engineering

 

Alastair

 

if only it was all that simple

 

why do people remove them in the wet then ?

[Alastairh 47]

i dunno, why do they?

[smckeown 1]

i don't know either, but it's a well known fact that they do. So even though I don't know the reasoning I follow their proven advice

[Alastairh 47]

That wouldn't bother me, as i don't think i will be doing many track days in the rain.

 

I do respect Jons advice, as he seems a good bloke in person, and does do quite few track days

 

Best bet is to try it yourself. i will when i have the cash, if not flog it to some one on ebay

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

The subframes are weak when used in competion (Wishbone mount crack), So seem welding them and adding stiffening plates to them is a very good idea, We use a new bar at the back edge as the Pug one is no good with flatened ends and the brace at the front, Look at a 306 subframe and it makes the 205 one look cr*p

Edited January 3, 2006 by Miles

[DrSeuss 0]

if someone can be bothered to produce some dimensions and figures for me, i'll get a mate who does FEA for steel structures to run a simulation.

 

I'll give him a bell tomorrow, see if i can persuade him.

 

As for you Jonmurgie, the percieved handling benefits are subject to individual interpretation. Talking on the internet neither proves you right nor wrong. And your opinions like everyone elses are valid.

 

CB-Dave fitted one and said it did nothing but nearly rip his subframe off every time he took a speed bump.

[Batfink 201]

wow what a stressy thread

 

I used mine on the road and found no benefit over the top brace and suspension already fitted

 

On track I would use one though. When you stop your car body flexing with a rollcage that twisting force just finds something weaker

[Jonmurgie 2]

Who'd have thought this topic would get over 40 posts!!

 

A bit more from my experiences... when I fitted the top brace (which was done a few months before the bottom) I didn't really feel it made any difference, which was surprising as in the past I've had an R5 Turbo and when I fitted an upper strutbrace to that it made a massive difference!!

 

So then I fitted the lower brace and THAT made the world of difference...

 

That's my experiences... again I can't believe that people are saying it's a s*ite mod when they have no personal experience!!

 

and D-9 your being a well cheeky fecker...

[Guest smokinslim]

People feel free to vent yourselves on my thread bout cti/309 track arms, a bit of stressed debate might do the topic some good.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that 205s and 309s share the same sub frame so braces should be interchangeable; are we certain about this? I had a 309 top brace briefly, would have fitted my 205 with slight repositioning of the mounting point holes, but not a cat in hells chance of ever getting my bonnet closed again.

 

(Having read this back to myself i may be putting my foot in my mouth here somewhat, but you live and learn so what the hell!)

[Jonmurgie 2]

No, the LOWER braces are the same... as the subframes are the same...

 

The UPPER braces are different as they 205 and 309 have different chassis legs

[d-9 0]

A bit more from my experiences... when I fitted the top brace (which was done a few months before the bottom) I didn't really feel it made any difference, which was surprising as in the past I've had an R5 Turbo and when I fitted an upper strutbrace to that it made a massive difference!!

 

So then I fitted the lower brace and THAT made the world of difference...

 

That's my experiences... again I can't believe that people are saying it's a s*ite mod when they have no personal experience!!

 

and D-9 your being a well cheeky fecker...

 

 

Thanks mate, I aim to please

 

Im very surprised that you found it made that much difference, as everything Ive read about them said that while lower strutbraces are very effective on some cars (106, mk1 golf/scirocco, scoob, etc) that theyre pointless on a 205. As a general rule I dont mindlessley repeat what other people have said when I havent tried it myself, but in this case I couldnt see how the subframe could flex, and if it did flex how a strutbrace could make the slightest difference, as the subframe is far more solid than most strutbraces Ive seen. (thou i didnt realise that the subframe wasnt seam welded...should be obvious really).

 

Anyways, last night one of my mates pointed out that the only way to say for sure is a before and after test on the same track on the same day, so next time im at haynes I'll do a blind test with someone and see if they can tell me if Id fitted or removed the strutbrace in between laps.

 

 

Out of interest, how much lower does the strutbrace sit than the subframe? I want to make sure i can still get into macky d's car park to show off my neonz...

[Maerten 0]

Just putting the part on, doing a lap, and taking it off again, and doing a lap, might not do it justice. Maybe the car feels better and you can have better lap times in the long run as you get used to the confidence or feel the lower strutbrace gives you

 

My upper and lower were fitted at the same time, so i cant really comment on just the lower brace... Its v v cheap, just give it a try and see what you like. Jonmurgie probably never wants to do another trackday without one, so it has deffo been worth it for him.

 

Taking the lower brace off in the wet is probably some mind game a team played to make the others feel like "What do they know, we dont?" So nowadays everyone does it without knowing what it does (just kidding, if someone knows why they do that, please respond )

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Can't see why you'd weant to take bracing off just for the wet, I'd normally expect the suspension to be softened (ie softer springs, dampers, or removal of the ARB like someone mentioned).

[Emmy Seize 8]

Erm, just to get my posts-count up a bit:

 

Yes, subframes of 309s and 205 Gtis are identical.

Yes, lower subframe bracebars do fit Mi16 engines (untilted ones at least).

No, the brace bar doesn´t make a difference on a daily driver.

Yes, the brace is a good idea on a trackday-car as indeed the wishbone mounts are kept from cracking.

 

Personal experience......

[markrnorton 0]

Echo Emmy Seize comments above.

 

As I said before cheap mod for track and race cars. (not really for road use, you couldn't push the car hard enough and british roads are kak!)

 

And as Miles also stated , seam weld the subframe, and uprate the rear subframe brace. It's all easy peasy and help keeps the suspension geometry as it should be.

 

Pic below isnt that good, but the brace does drop down quite low . The lower braces (205/309) are the same. This is a 205 one on my 309 prior to the engine going in.

 

 

 

What a topic !!!!

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Have you lowered the subframe on your car?