Ignition System

[PhilNW 40]

55 minutes ago, TKMotorsport said:

All voltages and earths are good at amplifier. Haven't tested the signal at the amplifier but the continuity between amplifier and dizzy wires are good. 

Do you mean direct battery voltages?  What the input and output voltage/signals like on your oscilloscope, is the amplifier actually amplifying any signal?

[TKMotorsport 0]

11 minutes ago, PhilNW said:

Do you mean direct battery voltages?  What the input and output voltage/signals like on your oscilloscope, is the amplifier actually amplifying any signal?

I have good ignition feed and a good earth. I have oscilliscoped the distributor through its plug and confirmed the distributor is providing a rotation signal. i have not osilliscoped directly at the amplifier end to check signal but i have done a continuity check between distributor and amplifier and this is ok.

As far as i can see the amplifer isnt producing a amplified rotation /negative pulse signal. The amplifier has been changed multiple times

[PhilNW 40]

3 minutes ago, TKMotorsport said:

I have good ignition feed and a good earth. I have oscilliscoped the distributor through its plug and confirmed the distributor is providing a rotation signal. i have not osilliscoped directly at the amplifier end to check signal but i have done a continuity check between distributor and amplifier and this is ok.

As far as i can see the amplifer isnt producing a amplified rotation /negative pulse signal. The amplifier has been changed multiple times

 Based on the original diagram looks like there are 3 wires between the dist and amp , guess one is power, one is earth and one signal, what is on those 3 wires?

[DamirGTI 323]

While cranking , If there's voltage signal generated from the pick up coil , then sent trough the signal wire to the ignition amp. , and all the 12v supply and grounds are present it should fire up (providing the amp. and coil are good)

 

If you did some work on the loom , try to swap pick up coil signal wires other way round on the ignition amp. side/connector .. there's + (red) , - (black) shielding (non insulated wire) .. try swapping places just the + and - , shielding doesn't matter .

Try the same on the dizzy side of the signal cable , on the very end where the + and - wires connect on the actual pick up coil .

 

Do inspect thoroughly the complete signal cable and its shorter end from the yellow 3-pin plug to the amp. , as the wires are pretty thin and easily break .. check and clean up both sides of the 3pin connector terminals free from dirt/oxidation , connection from the pick up coil to the amp. must be spot on .

 

If in doubt , for the test , remove/unplug the signal cable and ignore the whole connection from the dizzy to the amp and make your own , two wires with some spade connectors crimped on , one for + other for the - , connect on the pick up coil and then directly on the amp terminals .. but must be connected right , if you mix + and - on either side it wont work .. if it doesn't , just swap wires other way round . 

 

Other , when it was working for a while , have you been running the amps "dry" or with the thermal transfer paste applied and amps bolted on the alu. plate ?

Also , using std. cylindrical coil or "H4" coil pack ?

 

 

D

 

 

[TKMotorsport 0]

14 hours ago, PhilNW said:

 Based on the original diagram looks like there are 3 wires between the dist and amp , guess one is power, one is earth and one signal, what is on those 3 wires?

Those 3 wires are basically a analog rotation signal being created by the dizzy and a sheild to protect that signal. They are all ok

[TKMotorsport 0]

13 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

While cranking , If there's voltage signal generated from the pick up coil , then sent trough the signal wire to the ignition amp. , and all the 12v supply and grounds are present it should fire up (providing the amp. and coil are good)

 

Other , when it was working for a while , have you been running the amps "dry" or with the thermal transfer paste applied and amps bolted on the alu. plate ?

Also , using std. cylindrical coil or "H4" coil pack ?

 

Hey Damir,

 

Sorry for the tag.  Hope you dont mind. 

 

So the signal between the dizzy and the amp is ok. Wiring is fine. Distributor did get changed as a double check too. 

 

Currently the signal to fire the coil pack which is a 'H4' style is the issue. Do you know what drives that signal? 

When i say working for a while i mean starting and idiling for a short time to prove it starts. Thats lasted about a week. I mentoined to my friend who owns it that he needs to purchase some thermal paste after i first looked at it but i havent seen whther this has been done. 

[Telf 222 2 Cars]

6 minutes ago, TKMotorsport said:

I mentoined to my friend who owns it that he needs to purchase some thermal paste after i first looked at it but i havent seen whther this has been done. 

The Amp is basically a power transistor. If its been run with no thermal paste there is a good chance its burnt out. Its the equivalent of running your PC CPU without putting the thermal paste between the processor and the Fan/Cooler. If you arent sure of the condition its been run in stop searching and confirm this first.

[TKMotorsport 0]

@Telf Agreed that this unit required some thermal paste but during testing the issue should have been rectified by using another known good Amplifier. Which has not happened. So the search continues

[DamirGTI 323]

MTR 01 module is not suitable for firing H4 coil packs ...

 

You'll need MTR 04 module for that :

 

Bosch

0 227 100 204

0 227 100 200

..

 

Also , wiring for the MTR01 (0 227 100 123) and MTR04  (0 227 100 200) is different :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not sure if the MTR 04 modules will even work on a dizzy pick up coil signal .. never tried that myself .

 

 

D

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by DamirGTI

[TKMotorsport 0]

10 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

MTR 01 module is not suitable for firing H4 coil packs ...

 

You'll need MTR 04 module for that :

 

Bosch

0 227 100 204

0 227 100 200

..

 

Wiring for the MTR01 (0 227 100 123) and MTR04  (0 227 100 200) is different :

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also , not sure if the MTR 04 modules will work on a dizzy pick up coil signal .. never tried that myself .

 

 

Unfortunately i cant see the images. I have a this style of coil pack.

 

Like i said the car has run ok before so i cant see there being a compatibility problem. 

 

 

[DamirGTI 323]

I see .. it's the later style of the coil , not the actual wasted spark coil pack which i thought you're trying to use .

 

 

Those square coils where pretty bad reliability wise .. changed a lot of them , and contrary not a single cylindrical one .

 

The Jetronic ignition system is really simple , thus , i really don't know what's wrong then . If you have 12v power , grounds , signal , good amp/module and coil .

 

Can it be that you're loosing 12v power or ground due to the vibrations while cranking or something like so ?

You said something about "fiddling with the fuse box" made it start .. so i'd look there as the power feed goes from the fuse box/ignition switch .

 

Double check that you have known good amp/module and coil ... they're matched pair amp/module and coil , if not one can damage another , sometimes when the amp/module fails it takes the coil too .

Amp/module must be fitted on alu. plate and with the heat sink paste/jelly applied in between .. otherwise it'll burn out , and as said above might damage the coil as well .

 

 

D

 

 

 

[DamirGTI 323]

Try to run separate 12v supply and earths .. and see what happens .

 

 

D

[TKMotorsport 0]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:27 AM, DamirGTI said:

I see .. it's the later style of the coil , not the actual wasted spark coil pack which i thought you're trying to use .

 

 

Those square coils where pretty bad reliability wise .. changed a lot of them , and contrary not a single cylindrical one .

 

The Jetronic ignition system is really simple , thus , i really don't know what's wrong then . If you have 12v power , grounds , signal , good amp/module and coil .

 

Can it be that you're loosing 12v power or ground due to the vibrations while cranking or something like so ?

You said something about "fiddling with the fuse box" made it start .. so i'd look there as the power feed goes from the fuse box/ignition switch .

 

Double check that you have known good amp/module and coil ... they're matched pair amp/module and coil , if not one can damage another , sometimes when the amp/module fails it takes the coil too .

Amp/module must be fitted on alu. plate and with the heat sink paste/jelly applied in between .. otherwise it'll burn out , and as said above might damage the coil as well .

 

 

D

 

 

 

Could you just explain a 'mathced pair amp and coil' ?