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Power steering on 1.9 thoughts/advice

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Tom Fenton

Another way round it is use the 205 manual square pinion lower column link, take it to bits and fit the very bottom bit of the 306/Xsara one, which is the same square drive but shorter to take into account the power rack.

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Anthony
21 hours ago, joris_andriesse said:

I found a new xsara vts ph1 pas steeringrack, but to me it seems that the pinion doesn't have splines. 

Check carefully that it is an actual Xsara VTS rack (i.e. 2.4 turns lock to lock) - a few years ago I tried to find a new/recon one, and while several places claimed to sell them, they were actually just regular (3.2 turn lock to lock) 306/Xsara PAS racks that they were selling as "compatible" with a Xsara VTS.

 

18 hours ago, SweetBadger said:

You need the 205 Gti non-pas square drive lower universal joint. This will fit, however it's about 10mm too long so if you use it unmodified it pushes the steering wheel towards the driver and you'll lose the self cancelling indicators.

I think that this is one of those tolerance things, as on some 205's you can use a 205 non-PAS square drive lower UJ without any modifications at all.  That's how my own 205 with a Xsara VTS rack is done and how a few others I know of have been done without issue.  Column doesn't move so the self-cancelling function works as normal etc.

 

The way that Tom suggests is the proper way to do it though and is what I would probably do if I end up converting another car in the future.

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joris_andriesse
On 11/25/2021 at 11:17 AM, Anthony said:

Check carefully that it is an actual Xsara VTS rack (i.e. 2.4 turns lock to lock) - a few years ago I tried to find a new/recon one, and while several places claimed to sell them, they were actually just regular (3.2 turn lock to lock) 306/Xsara PAS racks that they were selling as "compatible" with a Xsara VTS.

Thanks Anthony, I think you are right. For that reason I didn't order one.
Now it seems that I have found a used one in France. Is there anything on which I can recognize that it is ineed a ph1 VTS rack? Any numbers on it or something?

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SRDT

Yellow plastic cap on the pinion if it's from a ZX, not sure for the Xsara.

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joris_andriesse
On 11/30/2021 at 11:34 AM, joris_andriesse said:

Now it seems that I have found a used one in France. Is there anything on which I can recognize that it is ineed a ph1 VTS rack? Any numbers on it or something?

Those French guys are a nightmare to cummunicate with, argh.

What would be second best PAS steeringrack after the Xsara VTS 1?

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welshpug

xsara VTS 2 :lol:     you would need the original pipework as the fittings are different and get them mated to the pipes you already have (unless its an XU10 engine then just run the whole pipe)

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joris_andriesse

Is it realy? What lock-to-lock ratio has that one? Is that better than 306/other Citroën models (which moght have an easier fit)?

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Anthony
1 hour ago, joris_andriesse said:

Is it realy? What lock-to-lock ratio has that one? Is that better than 306/other Citroën models (which moght have an easier fit)?

Assuming that it's the same as RHD, the Ph2 VTS racks are approximately 2.6 turns lock-to-lock, so a little slower than a Ph1 VTS but quicker than a regular 205/306 PAS rack at 3.2 turn lock-to-lock.

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joris_andriesse

I found this one in France. I just asked the seller what the production date of the car was (only mentioned it's from a 167hp vts, not from which year), but can any of you perhaps identify whether this is a phase 1-2 model?

 

image.png.af31db7bc8acbcd4daadb6792783075b.png

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welshpug

screw in unions are phase1, clamped joint is phase2.

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joris_andriesse
2 minutes ago, welshpug said:

screw in unions are phase1, clamped joint is phase2.

Sorry, but you mean the connection the right part (pinion?) whether that is with screws or clamped or the connection on the pipes?

 

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Anthony
1 hour ago, joris_andriesse said:

Sorry, but you mean the connection the right part (pinion?) whether that is with screws or clamped or the connection on the pipes?

 

Yes - the high-pressure pipe from the PAS pump and the return pipe to the reservoir and where they both attach to the steering rack - as Mei says, these are screw-fitting on the Ph1 VTS rack (same as a 205) and a clamped olive fitting on a Ph2 VTS (different to a 205, so you won't be able to use the original 205 PAS pipework)

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joris_andriesse
2 minutes ago, Anthony said:

 

Yes - the high-pressure pipe from the PAS pump and the return pipe to the reservoir and where they both attach to the steering rack - as Mei says, these are screw-fitting on the Ph1 VTS rack (same as a 205) and a clamped olive fitting on a Ph2 VTS (different to a 205, so you won't be able to use the original 205 PAS pipework)

I just, 1 minute ago, received a picture and some info. The car was a 2002, so a phase 2. But the connection with the steering rack is like this (with thread):
Any possibility that the French used a Phase 1 rack on a phase 2 car? Or is the clamping part only on the pipes (and didn't I understand it correctly)?


 

 

image.png.45d73a44903b7456ffa5055cb56a7840.png

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Anthony

That's definitely the earlier type fitting, so potentially it's a Ph1 VTS rack - get the seller to use a spanner, mole grips or whatever to turn the rack all the way one way to the stop, and count the turns back to the other stop to be sure.

 

I would be surprised if French / EU LHD spec cars kept the older fittings while UK / RHD cars got the olive fittings post 2001, but I don't know for sure - can any of our members on the continent confirm?  It certainly would be a late-registered car if it was a 2002 Ph1, but it's not impossible I guess (I had a 2001 registered Ph1 VTS here in the UK)

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joris_andriesse
7 minutes ago, Anthony said:

I would be surprised if French / EU LHD spec cars kept the older fittings while UK / RHD cars got the olive fittings post 2001, but I don't know for sure - 

I think that there are enough examples where there is no logic in what the french did/used ;) :p 

I asked him the question to check the lock to lock.

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SRDT

Dou you have better pictures of the pinion?

It should be as follows:

3.3 turns for 7 teeth pinion

2.75 turns for 8 teeth pinion

2.5 turns for 9 teeth pinion

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joris_andriesse

After studying some more pictures

13 minutes ago, SRDT said:

Dou you have better pictures of the pinion?

It should be as follows:

3.3 turns for 7 teeth pinion

2.75 turns for 8 teeth pinion

2.5 turns for 9 teeth pinion

I just asked him for a count and/or a better picture.
If I have a close look at the picture a few posts earlier, I do get the idea that I do count 7 teeth, so that would be disapointing :( Lets hope for the best.

 

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SRDT

9 teeth should make for a pretty big pinion, it's still smaller than the bearing inner diameter but not by much. The limit should be 10 with teeth this size.

You can find pinions with 8, 9 or 10 teeth on others Peugeot/Citroën racks but i don't know if they can mesh on another rack.

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DamirGTI
1 hour ago, SRDT said:

You can find pinions with 8, 9 or 10 teeth on others Peugeot/Citroën racks but i don't know if they can mesh on another rack.

 

 

Unfortunately no , pinions and racks are matched pairs ..

 

I tried Xsara VTS Ph1 pinion on a 3.2 rack , doesn't work as they're cut differently .

 

If the OP cannot find any of the quick rack versions (2.4 or 2.6) , i'd go with the 3.2 rack (plenty of them still around from say base 306 , partner/berlingo , xsara etc.) along with the PAS as it'll be better than std. manual rack . 

 

Seems like 308 rack can be made to fit as well (it's 2.7 turns lock-to-kock me thinks) , or bits (rack and pinion) used from the rack insides for building one inside 205 rack housing .

 

D

 

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SRDT

Do you know why it won't mesh? Is the pitch wrong, the helix angle wrong regarding of the casing or is it the rack that is pushed too far to fit inside the casing?

On the rack that goes with a 9 teeth pinion teeth are cut deeper than usual.

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joris_andriesse
23 hours ago, SRDT said:

Dou you have better pictures of the pinion?

It should be as follows:

3.3 turns for 7 teeth pinion

2.75 turns for 8 teeth pinion

2.5 turns for 9 teeth pinion

Are you sure about this?

Because he counts 7 teeth, that would mean it isn't a vts rack:(

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SRDT

It's information taken from Citroën documents about the ZX.

I think the problem with "VTS racks" is that not all Xsara VTS have the same engine, VTS is more of a trim level but the quick rack is probably exclusive to the XU10J4RS.

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joris_andriesse

This car was a 2.0 16v vts.

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SRDT

2.0 16v yes but 135, 137 or 167hp ?

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