106/Saxo Electric PAS pumps and Xsara VTS racks Split topic

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

On 8/3/2018 at 5:35 PM, Telf said:

PAS -on a GTI nah!

 

Every 205 GTI is better with PAS- my opinion.

The standard rack is awful. Nearly 4 turns lock to lock.

The various PAS racks range from something like 3.2 to 2.4. All are a big improvement, they detract nothing from the driving in my opinion. Try one and see what you think is my advice.

[DamirGTI 323]

Ditto ! for what i can say could be one of the best mods for our 205's .

I did this conversion first on my mates 205 Rallye ,  was a 2.6 rack from ZX with the PAS electric pump from Saxo .. then luckily i found an salvaged Xsara VTS with a 2.4 rack for myself/for my daily 205 .

 

As Tom says , definitely try one if you have someone local with an PAS rack fitted (preferably short ratio 2.6 or 2.4 .. but even 3.2 PAS rack is a big improvement) you'll be amazed how well it drives with shorter rack ! and the PAS system is really well balanced .

Only "downside" to the short racks (2.6 and 2.4) you'll be better with PAS fitted as it's kinda "hard on your hands" without the PAS (not just stationary , but while drivin trough corners too) , especially if its an road use 205 you're building .

 

D

[jackherer 543]

44 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

definitely try one if you have someone local with an PAS rack fitted (preferably short ratio 2.6 or 2.4

I suppose I could let @Telf have a go in mine one day...

[barneys66 120 1 Cars]

1 minute ago, jackherer said:

I suppose I could let @Telf have a go in mine one day...

I didn't think you had yours plumbed in yet @jackherer..?!

 

Mine is available for test drives too - 2.7 Xsara with Saxo pump. Zero toe. 

[jackherer 543]

I've literally just plumbed it in!

 

I've been driving Bond's 205 with a 2.4 rack all plumbed in and getting back in mine was starting to annoy me. I finally fitted my Satchshift a while ago for exactly the same reason.

[barneys66 120 1 Cars]

4 minutes ago, jackherer said:

I've literally just plumbed it in!

 

I've been driving Bond's 205 with a 2.4 rack all plumbed in and getting back in mine was starting to annoy me. I finally fitted my Satchshift a while ago for exactly the same reason.

Nice work! Where did you mount it, as you were using the remote reservoir version, yes..?

 

Ooh, night have to try your Satchshift on for size.. 

[jackherer 543]

On the battery tray currently along with a tiny race battery. It's still unfinished and on axle stands though and I'm considering alternative options... And yes, it is the remote res (earlier?) version.

 

You're welcome to have a drive with the Satchshift but it could end up costing you £300!

[DamirGTI 323]

1 hour ago, jackherer said:

I suppose I could let @Telf have a go in mine one day...

I fear he might fall in love with it so much so he'll (unawarely) vanish to the unknown and you'll be left without your 205 !!

 

D

[DamirGTI 323]

Anyways , with regards to the Saxo pump location , here's what i did on my mates 205 Rallye (seemed to me like an good location , and all the wiring bits plugged in and hidden inside OE fuse/relay box) :

 

(ignore the two different pump type , the first one went bust after an few days so fitted spare one with separate reservoir)

[jackherer 543]

47 minutes ago, DamirGTI said:

I fear he might fall in love with it so much so he'll (unawarely) vanish to the unknown and you'll be left without your 205 !!

I'll keep my eye on him at all times

 

That's a neat location, I will do some poking about there for sure. My high pressure hose is actually too long so it may well route down to there.

 

I have three pumps at the moment, including one like that with the integrated reservoir. I'll use whichever one doesn't break after a week or two, that seems to happen a lot with these pumps. Although it looks like the end casings might swap between them possibly?

 

A while ago I discovered that some very late 205s in Spain and possibly France actually had the Saxo pump fitted from new! It has a different casing to either of the two pumps above though, it looks like it is designed to be mounted vertically. Unfortunately I can't find any photos of one fitted nor can I find one for sale with a bracket for a sensible price posted to the UK.

 

E.g. https://www.recuperautopalafolls.com/bomba-direccion-peugeot-205-berlina-1.9-diesel-64-cv-recuperauto-palafolls-en-barcelona-barcelona-detalle3831968.html

 

 

Edit: The more I look at that the more I wonder if it is actually intended by Peugeot to be fitted vertically where you have fitted that one above...?

 

I've actually managed to find it on Servicebox:

 

 

This is getting horribly off topic, I'll split it into another thread tomorrow.

Edited September 20, 2018 by jackherer

[Anthony 1,000]

Interesting - wonder why they changed so late in the production run when they already had a proven PAS setup?

 

Looks like a tidy installation in the front corner Damir and good to know it does fit down there - I had mulled over installing mine there when I finally get around to it, but looked like it would be very tight when I briefly offered it up.

 

As for PAS, I'm not too fussed on the assistance side of things (although I think it's pretty essential when using a Xsara rack) but a quicker ratio of a PAS rack is a definite plus.  I had to remove the 3.2 turn de-PAS rack from my 205 a year or two back when the end bush wore out, and the standard 3.9 turn non-PAS rack I put on in its place felt so dim-witted by comparison, something further highlighted recently when I dragged my Xsara VTS out of storage and keep alternating between driving that and the 205.

[jackherer 543]

I imagine it just came down to cost, once they introduced the Saxo and 106 S2 in 1996 they were buying a lot of electric pumps and the more they bought the less they cost and the price of designing and manufacturing the new brackets and pipes etc. must have been less than the potential savings compared to buying a rapidly reducing quantity of belt driven pumps. I just had a poke about in Servicebox and found out they fitted them to some AXs, 106 S1s and C15s too but it's anybodies guess which markets they were selling them in and when.

[Anthony 1,000]

I guess so, but still seems hard to believe that the costs of designing, testing and manufacturing parts specific the 205 installation would have been worth it for the final year-ish of scaled back production of an effectively obsolete model by that point.

[welshpug 1,621]

I don't think its that complicated, they don't make the pumps themselves so it would have just been a case of checking the specs of the pump is suitable for the application and packaging.

 

that and if they bought in quantities ready for the launch of the P2 saxo and 106 they could easily rob some for the runout shells

 

 

[jackherer 543]

Some testing and development work must've gone into number 5 on the diagram above! In other words a last minute panic reaction to an unforeseen problem...

 

Does anyone have any thoughts on where it was fitted to a 205?

 

I am pretty convinced it goes where Damir fitted the one he posted above but vertically.

 

Unlike the Saxo pumps it just has a single inlet for the reservoir and the return line. This is because it uses the original 205 PAS reservoir and the return line routes to that as normal.

[Tom Fenton 1,524]

Looking at the bracket, and with the protector, I’m wondering if they put it in the front of the wheelarch fitted to the headlamp panel? I’ve always thought there was space in front of the stiffener bar for something.

[welshpug 1,621]

i think its in the bay, there are two holes that match on the inside of the chassis rail.

[jackherer 543]

It's a shame servicebox doesn't have better diagrams, I looked at the relevant pipework to see if it had any clues but it doesn't really help.

 

 

I found some photos of one with the protector fitted, it's missing from most of them which isn't too surprising as it only seems to be riveted on.

 

I'm half tempted to buy it and offer it up to see where it goes but £35 shipping is too much given that I don't really need the heavy parts!

 

[DamirGTI 323]

On 9/21/2018 at 12:48 AM, jackherer said:

I have three pumps at the moment, including one like that with the integrated reservoir. I'll use whichever one doesn't break after a week or two, that seems to happen a lot with these pumps. Although it looks like the end casings might swap between them possibly?

Yes , the casing can be swapped over from one to another .. would be best to clean up the motor first before install , i did on that replacement pump just to be on a safe side , luckily the brushes where still good as well as the rotor/commutator surface (guess you can find replacement brushes and renew them if you end up finding any bad/worn out ones ?)

 

How sweet , we've found ourselves an mystery to solve now ! , need to recruit more Spanish members

 

Me thinks too that they fitted it in the engine bay , on the chassis leg as there's some addition drilled out holes there , for which i couldn't find reason being ..firstly i thought about welding up the Saxo pump bracket there close to those holes on the chassis leg however the clutch cable was in the way (being an MA box with long clutch cable and routed from underneath) and with the pump fitted was blocking the clutch cable operation so i decided to lower it further down as per the pictures above .. lastly the plan was to fabricate some plastic splash shield to protect the pump motor , but i ran out of time (was an complete engine and gearbox rebuild along with the PAS conversion) and the car was sold to Belgium kinda soon after the rebuild .

 

D

[jackherer 543]

14 hours ago, DamirGTI said:

need to recruit more Spanish members

Yes, it would be ideal if someone in Spain (or maybe France) could advise us.

 

Also it would be great if I could buy the pump in question and get it sent to an address in Spain.

[DamirGTI 323]

Seem to remember there was a few lads from Spain here ? but not so much active in our community/forum .. not so much activity anyways since the appearance of the bloody  Facebook Twitter an the likes , shame , miss the old forum days .

 

Someone Spanish might pop up and see this after a while ..

 

D

[petert 549]

I run a 2.7 with a 1.9L Mi16 pump and I can't fault it. A 2.4 would be nicer, but so would the 2.1 I've got a sniff of. A pump which is gaining popularity over here is the Mercedes A Class.

 

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Mercedes-Benz-A-Class-W168-Electric-Power-Steering-Pump-A-168-466-05-01/263947276214?epid=2171917691&hash=item3d747bcfb6:g:PJ0AAOSwZrtZsbag

 

 

[Anthony 1,000]

The W168 A-class one looks like it's a nice compact unit.

 

Other one I've heard of being commonly used is the GM unit found on Mk4 Astra's I believe.  Mounts vertically like the A-class one and looks like it would be straightforward to mount and plumb/wire in, plus I'd imagine breakers are full of them.

 

[petert 549]

Parry runs an Astra pump. It's cheap and cheerful. He runs it flat out, without any speed control. The A Class pump is intelligent and has internal pressure sensing.

[DamirGTI 323]

I have my 2.4 rack plumbed on the 405 PAS pump and pipework , so essentially the same system as OE 205 PAS setup .. no complains what so ever , by having opportunity to try both , comparing the two (mechanical and electric) feels about the same if not identical . Kinda prefer the mechanical pump myself .

 

 

D