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DRTDVL

Ew Conversion Guide - Is There One?

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DRTDVL

I'm going to be starting a project next year to fit an ew10j4 into my racecar after a mechanical failure killed the xu9j4 I was running.

 

Is anyone making a mounting kit for the conversion, as from what I've read you need to fabricate a new top mount and shorten the bottom mount.

 

The manual gearbox I have is from the 307 which the engine came from and has the hockey stick style bearing which from what I've read here means I can use my exsisting driveshafts.

 

Can anyone provide me with a heads up to any other things I need to lookout for?

 

We will be running a custom exhaust manifold, itbs, and a aftermarket ecu also.

 

Any advice would be great.

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welshpug

Give sandy or colin a shout, sandy built a 200+ bhp ew5 (xu5 crank in ew7 block) that is residing in a visa gti rally car.

 

Contact points in the visa are the same as a 205, as are most 405's and 306 etc.

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welshpug

Hope Biggles doesn't mind me posting his engine bay pic!

 

 

DSCF20751j-1.jpg

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DRTDVL

Thanks for that!

 

We where having a look last night at how we want to go about it.

 

I'll be documenting the whole process and should we need to make up the new top mount part we are going to make a CAD model for it and i'll offer it out to anyone here that wants it. Unless anyone that has done the conversion already has one that they wouldn't mind sharing.

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welshpug

Ask Colin, he made the one pictured.

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Biggles

As mentioned above, the top mount was fabricated by Sandy & Colin, the bottom mount is 206 GTI (or so it says on it) and the fork onto the subframe is standard but uses the TU mounting point as on the later model subframes rather than the XU one.

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DRTDVL

Thanks - I've message Colin via facebook as i couldn't remember his username here.

 

The TU vs XU mounting location is something i wasn't aware of, how different are they? I'm presuming it's just a extra hole drilled in the sub-frame?

 

Google images has helped me understand what your talking about, i'll need to see if both my sub-frames have the secondary location. I'm assuming the EW lines up with the further back location, or did the bracket need to be bent to line up as the location looks to be offset more towards the center of the car?

Edited by DRTDVL

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Biggles

If you're asking what I think you're asking - it's an optical illusion - the engine sits more upright than an XU but no bending or anything else just a bespoke top mount with bottom mount as described - gearbox mount is standard.

 

Ref the XU vs TU mount - yes, the TU mount is an extra hole slightly towards the centreline of the car and slightly further back (IIRC). It's easy enough to add if your subframe doesn't have it (I did as the Visa subframe is sliightly different to a 205 one so I didn't have a "late model" option as the TU was never fitted to the Visa). I can probably fix you up with a template of where to drill if you're really stuck.

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DRTDVL

Sorry I really worded that wrong.

 

After you reminded me that the engine sits more up right, it makes sense that bottom mount will sit further back as the top of the engine moves towards the front the bottom mount moves towards the rear of the car, which is why you need the shortened mount or use the mount that sits further back.

 

Both my sub-frames have the TU mounting location so that's cool.

 

Thanks for all the information!

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Hilgie

This is the one I did a few years ago:

 

IMG00438_20121027_1212.jpg

 

Full story: http://www.hilgertbos.com/gallery/marcvogels

 

Notice the gearbox stuff.....as we did not have a full 206GTi gearbox at our disposal back then (this was in 2005) we used the flywheelhousing from a 206gti and the rest of the gearbox came from a Citroen BX 1.6

 

The engine came out of a 2004 206 CC and went into a 1987 GTI.

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DRTDVL

Wow sorry its been so long since i looked at this, I've been focused on a sporting trip to the US that I've got in July and have had to try and forget about this or I would be distracted and as such I haven't had much time or money to look at starting anything yet.

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DRTDVL
Posted (edited)

Between the sporting trips, work requirements, and buying a house this project went on hold for a very long time... sad I know... I'm now at a point where I can rebuild the 205 finally... 

 

I'll be running a Link Monsoon G4+ Ecu so I don't have to worry about any of the factory ECU stuff. (https://www.motorsportselectronics.com/products/link-g4-monsoon-ecu?variant=37175471812)

 

I've got a few questions around the mounting of the engine, as I've run into a few issues that I'm sure others have gotten around or I'm just doing something wrong, the engine in the images is from an early 206 GTI and was in an unknown running condition, so I'm just using it to mock up before a full teardown or grabbing a known condition engine:

 

I've got one of the original Satchell EW conversion top mounts:

ABSRlIrfwBdRfycf3wMh9hYkDU81LRurStgYRjHe

 

ABSRlIo5XdjHP8np93EkeBfMvNiVdaUKFs2b9AMB 

 

 

I've had an issue with the gearbox mount:

  • if I used the factory 206 setup/location, the bolt didn't line up with the hole for the gearbox mount when the top mount was already fitted - it was out by about 20-30mm if I remember correctly
  • If I remove the spacer bracket and put the bolt into the gearbox itself (outermost hole), the engine is angled forward and upwards on the gearbox side.
  • If I flip the spacer the gearbox lines mount lines up and the engine is level, but the diff hits the rear subframe

Spacer in the normal location:

uc?export=download&id=1gdFkwTgKY4mi4-b0O

 

Spacer block flipped - some of the webbing needs to be ground down and the bottom of the spacer needs to be re-tapped (m14x1.5) to allow the bolt to screw in, and the locating dowel pushed through to the other side:

ABSRlIqe_pmVrWaZMa_NaHr2rOScKUomGqhATx1m 

 

With the spacer flipped the engine sits basically flat and looks to be straight:

ABSRlIo15NAw4iYuXdYrc_Zk5kQYaFF5WlTISGbx

 

Diff / Subframe issue - with gearbox spacer block flipped:

ABSRlIoPfFyOX8yq2UayvUjUYnSdH660UAm-19qJ

 

The diff issue is preventing the rear mount from getting close to being attachable (sorry for the blurryness):

ABSRlIpSoEkN13AF-wnTfolmqbS-n4MBnCXlBU3H

 

From what it looks like the 206 and 205 lower brackets are the same lengths just with the sub-frame mount flipped 90degrees. 

ABSRlIoliwWwDPSeFyYpcG9fTA-YaCJxrEyQIjCq 

 

The issue I've got is if I push the bottom of the engine away from the center of the car, the top and gearbox mount aren't flat and are tilted towards the center of the car. If I pull the bottom mount towards the center of the car to flatten the top/gearbox mount i have clearance issues with the diff and potential driveshaft alignment issues.

 

No doubt, I've got a bunch of things completely wrong, but my understanding was that the bottom mount needed to be lengthened, a custom top mount was needed, and the 206 gearbox mounting location was fine...

 

Any assistance would be great before we start looking at making new mounts for everything.

 

Heath

 

Edited by DRTDVL

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welshpug

do you have the 205 stud and large washer?  thats all you need for the gearbox afaik.

 

also get the buffers fitted to the top mounting.

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DRTDVL

Hi Welshpug,

 

i'm assuming your talking about this one:

aswaMAPGqPxDIuTWzYMgi5m_dDdHyZ86YkHTKQGb 

that's what I've been using - this might be the one from the 206 actually... 

 

The top buffers will be fitted later, at the moment I'm just trying to get the engine roughly bolted up, as once that's done I can start looking at the plumbing/radiator situation and provide the measurements to the guy making the ITBS for me (it's a fair bit cheaper to get a custom set made in NZ than to purchase the Jenvy/AT Power ones and have them shipped to NZ, same with the shortened radiator.)

 

 

 

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welshpug

your image didnt succeed it appears!

the 206/306 studs are different,  place the battery tray/mounting on the chassis leg and youll see which hole directly in the casing you need to use

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DRTDVL
Posted (edited)

No idea what happened there, linking from Google drive can be a bit odd.. 

 

I've reattached the stud image (the washer goes underneath I know) and added a gearbox casing image. You have to use the outer most hole otherwise nothing lines up. 

 

I just pulled it all apart and remounted everything and this time using the stud and the outer most hole it worked... No idea why it didn't on the weekend. 

 

The engine is sitting level and looks to be straight but i haven't measured anything yet. 

 

But now the top mount is rubbing on the flared seam of the top mount area, it looks like I'll have to hammer it inwards or grind it down. 

20200817_221927.jpg

20200817_221911.jpg

20200817_221818.jpg

20200817_221838.jpg

Edited by DRTDVL
Adding text

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welshpug

thats the wrong stud

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DRTDVL

Ok, the hunt for a 205 be3 stud shall continue... 

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welshpug

be1 is the same, 309, possibly a few others.

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DRTDVL

Awesome, thanks for that. 

 

I've already put some feelers out to see who has one over here I can grab.

 

Heath

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DRTDVL

So managed to grab a 205 stud today and bolted it all up. I needed to do a few other things today, so I'll spend more time getting the lower mount sorted later this week/next weekend. 

 

I took some measurement of the 205/206 studs, so others can see the difference. 

 

The 206 stud slops around inside the 205 gearbox mount, where the 205 stud once the nut is tightened is firmly in place. 

20200823_165945.jpg

20200823_170207.jpg

20200823_170325.jpg

20200823_170401.jpg

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welshpug

206 stud uses a stepped sleeve to clamp down onto, which is longer and larger o.d than the 205 stud, same as a 306,  not suitable for a 205 at all but thankfully all the 205 bits fit straight on.

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DRTDVL

Sorry for the slow update, ended up going back into covid lockdown and then decided to build a terraced backyard. 

 

The 205 gearbox stud has worked a treat and the engine is basically completely level:

1nJUiAYoFNGC_PUNETxM1Dvct3Lm1mO7w=w1920-h1080-iv1

 

With the EW series engines, is it ok to run them at around 20 degrees vs the original 15, I've had a look and mocked up a mount that allows for the exhaust to clear the tunnel basically.

 

205 vs 206/307 (i can't remember which one is in the image below) mount, there doesn't appear to be much difference, except for the subframe mounting orentation:

1h-vN-iXG1ygfZSlK-9hF3GJcl53IwNpy=w1922-

 

205 mount in place with engine hanging from Satchell top mount and 205 gearbox mount, the isn't anyway the factory mounts will work:.

1hEpSeLGF-I2F40IBA-iWDf6oDeaToaGx=w1922-

 

I hacked up a couple of the spare mounts and made this monstrosity, just to test with:

1nQFozufChZ6VqQBp6h2w3zZvD-4-pVJl=w1228-

 

this has the engine sitting about 20ish degrees and the driveshafts look good, it also allows for the exhaust to fit in the tunnel. The manifold is the gti180, with a high precession 3inch drain pipe i had laying around as a clearance indicator:

1n8v-CWwcb-YomQI-fDtu3OW15gHufXkx=w1920- 

 

Figured I'd see how wrong I am with the above before moving along... If it's decided that the above isn't a crap setup then I'll attach a a cad file of the lower mount to this thread for anyone that wants it as a reference. 

 

Edited by DRTDVL

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