302 Hp Na Gti6 205

[stebbs 5]

That car was on the rollers before me. Pug1off were very secret squirrel about it...can't tell you much else other than I saw the screens and the car leave with a delaminated clutch...

[MiniGibbo 142]

That's mad, I've had mine off the speedo and going by the 106 Paper stats I was doing in the region of 110-115 and f*** me lol....

 

 

[Baz 421]

 

Is't pug1off on here to comment? or north Hampton motor sport?

j_turnell works for Northampton Motorsport.

[dav1 7]

Has j_turnell got any comments on wat sandy says? Or could he ask any one at work or pug1off? I only say this as iam getting tempted on an upgrade and its good back ground info. So you know wat your buying. cheers dave

[MiniGibbo 142]

saw this in person today, it was on the same stand i was at "fast show".. got a 12.6 on the strip.

 

Sounded awesome

[welshpug 1,626]

highlights the doubts over the claimed power figures, as I know of a 200 bhp 106 that'll do long 12's.

[dcc 855]

im sure phil was running 11.8 in a 200bhp gti6 ?

[MiniGibbo 142]

When i spoke to the guy i said to him "this is the one everyones questioning on drivers then?" in humour.. i dont think he found it funny though

 

It was beasting some serious cars today so what ever its producing its defaintly fast, i personally watched it do a 13.2 mid afternoon

Edited March 25, 2012 by MiniGibbo

[custard-rallye 25]

highlights the doubts over the claimed power figures, as I know of a 200 bhp 106 that'll do long 12's.

 

Dave p?

[j_turnell 134 3 Cars]

Firstly, Hi Dave, any questions you have just give us a call. Details on our website

 

 

Secondly, there is a lot of speculation on this thred, with the usual jumping on the band wagon. If anyone has any questions about the accuracy of our dyno please get in touch.

 

We do map/tune a lot of very high end cars and its also pretty varied, from £12m Ferraris to Good old 205s with excellent results.

 

Matt at pug1off builds a cracking engine and we get so many variations in with different engine specs.

 

I have thought about posting results for the benefit of the forum but havent, purely for this reason.

 

Cheers, James

 

 

 

[welshpug 1,626]

yeah, lovely car

[welshpug 1,626]

Dave p?

 

yeah, lovely car

[Spiky 37]

on the strip, the terminal speeds will give you an idea on power

 

what are all the terminal speeds?

[custard-rallye 25]

I'm hoping to get faster times than him but I'm boosted so.......

[Sandy 189]

You can get too hung up on figures and the headline power is often all that's talked about. Rolling roads play to that obsession and while perceived accuracy/consistency can be seen in some cases, rolling roads always produce estimated figures. By the nature of the way they work that is the case and anyone that knows the machine they're using can optimise or downgrade results as the want to. No rolling road operator speaking openly will deny this. By that token, you really don't know that well when what you're seeing is on target, especially running the rollers at extreme speeds as in this case. Tyre behaviour is a major curve ball. Also no self respecting company that depends on the rollers for the majority of their work and has spent (or borrowed) alot of money for a top line machine is going to tell you they're anything less than accurate; if they want their reputation to remain intact. It's a shame, but that's the way it works, because of the way customer will react.

 

At no point have I said that Pug1off's work is in question, or that it's not a good engine; you need to speak to their customers about their experiences perhaps to gauge that. Personally I would always dyno an engine like this (engine dyno, I don't apply the term "dyno" to rolling roads), it's the only way to make sure it's run in correctly and the cam, base ignition map and pipe tuning are fully optimised. If it's a correctly calibrated and corrected dyno, you'll get a perfect handle on the figures too. But given what some companies I hear are charging for engine dyno sessions, I can imagine why it get skipped!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Sandy

[Sandy 189]

Perhaps what I should go on to say, is that j_turnell is in a rather awkward situation here, if his employers and customers are being discussed, then there's not alot he can say without risk of flaming from either camp. Equally, I am alot more reserved these days about sticking my head up into the firing line, when it's easier not to and I risk people just thinking I'm a tosser, or one of my customers taking their car to one of these places and the people there might have a very negative view of me from the off.

But knowing what I know (and there's ALOT that isn't being said here), it's really hard to sit back and read something like this, without any credible questioning of, what to me is very questionable.

 

If the customer is happy with what they've built him for the money, then that's great, that's a result. The issue for me is comparisons. If the quoted figures and graph are in the right area, then fair play and I tip my hat, but in that case I can't resist laying it against the engine dyno figures for my latest XU10, which I'd quote as "271bhp", I only tested it to 8000rpm, it had done what I wanted by then:

 

[petert 554]

Back in mid '90's, the marketing men tried to convince the Australian public that Super Tourers (<2000cc) were the future and V8's would fade away. So Super Tourers and V8 Supercars ran separate series side by side for a few years. Famous European teams were paid big dollars to bring their cars and drivers down under. A business I use for machining liners, Bakers (now at Mowlong near Orange) are aircraft certified and have an engine dyno. So most of the European teams tuned their 1999cc engines on Baker's dyno. When you develop 1999cc to the limit, they all flow the same amounts, use similar cam timing and thus if they have an RPM limit (8500 from memory), all make similar hp. They all made between 285 and 290hp. Would 1999cc make any more hp 15 yrs later? Possibly. Everyone thought 600hp was the limit from 4999cc with 10:1 and 7500 rpm. They now push 630-640hp.

[Spiky 37]

technology does change and improve

 

look at the 1980's cosworth engine, full race spec had a max of 550'ish Bhp

 

now there are few running 800-900bhp (genuine too)

[Baz 421]

Not racing reliably though, that is the key to why they 'only' ran 500 or so.

[pug1off 3]

Let's set a few things straight here. I've been developing the gti6 engine with various customers since 2005, since then we have taken the solid follower builds from 245bhp to 302bhp. The engine used in this case is an ex-BTCC 2001 engine which we have re-worked extensively, it features a small journal billet crank (86mm) and titanium valve gear which enables us to run it to this rpm as a very safe limit, as you can see the power is rising hard even at the 9700rpm cut-off and there is no reason why it wouldn't make 10,500rpm. In other words what we have here is a reverse engineered Maxi engine plus a bit extra.

 

Yes, it will need regular checks and frequent re-builds, not an everyday engine.

 

The dyno comparison that Sandy has knocked up here, in my opinion, simply shows a larger cc engine with a milder cam. Nearly 200lb/ft from a 2 litre??? Given that the Brake Mean Effective Pressure or "bmep" is 240psi for a normally aspirated engine on pump fuel, thus giving a theoretical max torque / litre of 96.696967lb/ft, I think he should consider applying for an engine design job at Renault F1! The graph is also far too smooth for an engine that would certainly require a large duration camshaft to make the 270bhp.

 

The car is fitted with a 6-speed and our custom 4.8 final drive, the run was done in 6th as this is similar to the standard 5th gear ratio. It does hit 162mph even in this gear, which explains the high losses, as I'm sure you will be aware that losses are exponential and increase dramatically with high road speeds (due to excess friction in the gear oil / bearings / tyres etc). Interestingly the losses in this drivetrain are greater than that of the laser green 205 mentioned which has a 283bhp, more affordable steel valve engine which revs to 9100rpm. This car does a standing quarter in 12.4 at 111mph - it wins every event at Santa Pod that it attends! 200bhp 205's would be in the region of 14.0! The 302bhp car has, as someone mentioned done a 12.6 with a poor start and a much higher terminal speed of 119mph, It hasn't been back since but the owner tells me it will be back this year.

 

Northampton Motorsport are completely independant of Pug1Off, the dyno is actually pretty tough on power figures, but lets be honest, if you had a dyno and gave out bulls**t figures, your name would soon be muck. I'm sure myself and staff at Northampton motorsport would be more than happy to answer any reasonable questions on this topic.

 

But let's stop blowing bubbles up each other's arses here, the real way to discover who is building the most powerful N/A xu10 engines in the UK, is to meet at an independant rolling road (that measures losses), somewhere in the middle of the two locations for a showdown, max capacity 2050cc, better make it worth my while, lets say £500 from each side, winner takes all.

[kyepan 291]

I saw you join today, and was kind of expecting this post, thanks for coming onto the forum and sharing your point of view!

 

It's interesting to observe that there may be a difference in approach / ethos between the two engine builders, one goes for peak power down the strip (in this instance), the other seems to be aiming for a spread of tractable torque that works best for the application. At least that's the impression i get from his previous posts, and your post here.

 

 

Cheers

 

J

Edited April 27, 2012 by kyepan

[dcc 855]

*insert popcorn smiley*

Edited April 27, 2012 by dcc

[Batfink 201]

I'll buy the winning engine for £500

[pip470 61]

Pug1off certainly dominate the strip at Santa pod. Their cars are awesome, always immaculately turned out and certainly put the numbers on the board time and time again. Its a shame they have joined the forum in this way and its a shame that people who seem to be pushing the boundaries always have to spell it out how they have done it before its considered genuine.

 

A terminal speed of 119mph indicates the kind of power this car has.

 

Welcome to the forum, I look forward to any build threads, santa pod reports or any new products that you may post up on here.

 

Phill.

[pug1off 3]

Hey, I was a member in 2004/5. Just very busy and forgot my password. Gonna try and get on a bit more, plus we're talking about sponsoring the site / Offers etc with the admin guys.

 

It is a shame that word got to us of the usual slagging, it really is astounding the lengths people will go to in the name of jealousy/pride.

 

Thanks for the support.

 

Matt