[project] The Ultimate Track 205

[Cameron 16]

Sure will.

[allye 530 3 Cars]

Good luck!? Unlimted, single seaters etc etc? thats going to have to be a some kind of super engine!

 

What are the class's based around?

[Cameron 16]

I'll be competing with the other tin-tops rather than single seaters, should have a good enough chance if I keep the weight low and get the sus right.

[Rippthrough 98]

[tri_longer 25]

I'll be competing with the other tin-tops rather than single seaters, should have a good enough chance if I keep the weight low and get the sus right.

 

Wait till you come up against Mike Mannings YB powered 4x4 Puma. One of the most impressive tin tops I have seen

[Cameron 16]

Yeah there's some awesome cars in tin-tops!

 

Also this thing.. helps a little if you own XTrac..

 

[kyepan 291]

surely you would be at a distinct disadvantage grip wise with RWD, and the short wheel base would make it ... rather twitchy.

[Cameron 16]

I'm not sure the disadvantage will be so severe.. Ok I won't be able to compete against any 1000bhp monsters with highly sophisticated 4WD systems, but I intend to give the people at the more sensible end of the scale a good run for their money. I'm not convinced at all that 4WD is worth it without running silly horsepower to overcome the extra mechanical losses and weight, and since I don't want to go down the silly horsepower route (too expensive) it's the better option.

 

(Don't suggest fitting Evo or Scoob running gear either, it won't go down well)

 

The wheelbase shouldn't be much of a problem really, it's not like it's a Mini or anything and hillclimb tracks are quite tight!

[kyepan 291]

are you going down the forced induction route?

[welshpug 1,626]

should have bought an escrot

 

probably worth having a chat with sandy as he's done mapping on duratecs these days I think, he may know what's required to build a good one and give a few pointers.

[Cameron 16]

Picked up my new batch of subframe - chassis mounts today.

 

 

Close-up:

 

 

The 3mm gap is intentional, there'll be a load spreading plate in there. The larger part is for the subframes and the small disc is an insert for 45mm roll hoop tube, the two bolt together to hold the subframe securely in position.

 

Will be getting some work done on it this weekend, been too long!

[Rippthrough 98]

I spy chatter marks, fail!

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

chatter marks

Which is??

[Liquid_106 97 1 Cars]

 

Which is??

Don't bother, I Googled it

[Rippthrough 98]

[Cameron 16]

Meh, bovvard!

 

That bit gets hammered inside a piece of tube and welded in, nobody will ever see.

 

Anywho.. been doing some work the past couple of days, massive thank you to Stu aka Davenport for folding up my chassis reinforcement rails! I gave them the necessary trimming and welded them in place - proper job!

 

 

Next - roll hoops!

[wracing 19]

 

Junk the Duratec.

 

S16 directly bolting up to a RWD box, plus plenty of conversion options.....sequential, dog box various ratios.

 

Keep it pug

 

James

[Sandy 189]

probably worth having a chat with sandy as he's done mapping on duratecs these days I think, he may know what's required to build a good one and give a few pointers.

 

We've already discussed this. If it was an Escort, I could understand the Ford into Ford philosophy being applied, but this isn't going to be a bolt in install by any stretch of the imagination and if the justification for engine choice is largely tuning parts availability and bell housing, then the Honda K20-24 pees on it from a great height, even higher if it's likely to be a medium spec rather than full race spec build. Reliability with the Duratecs is a much bigger problem than most will admit too. Half of my work these days is on top spec RWD Escorts with Vauxhall/derivatives, Millington/YBs, BDs, Duratecs, Warriors, Honda K's, I have alot to draw on!

 

When I was getting into planning my RWD 309, Just about everyone said "why not just get an Escort?" Well, an reasonable untouched RWD Escort shell can easily nudge five figures now and have you seen how much fab work goes into a properly done Escort shell? You could start with just about any shell with about 2.4m wheelbase and 1.4-1.5m track width!

Edited March 31, 2012 by Sandy

[Cameron 16]

Thanks for the info Sandy. I know we've had some discussion on Duratec vs other engines already (particularly EW10) but Honda and VTEC are 2 words I'd like to try and keep out of the equation.I'm open to being convinced, but I just don't think it's necessary for what I'm trying to do.. I don't need an engine that I can pootle around the paddock / pits in, or take off the track and drive to the shops, so I'm quite happy to build an engine that needs revs to work.

 

The Duratec appeals to me because it's a well designed alloy block similar to the EW and the K series, I can keep things simple without running VCT, it has a good bore-stroke ratio, there's a tonne of aftermarket parts from several manufacturers, there's plenty of engines available at reasonable prices, and there's a good choice of RWD gearboxes.

 

Feel free to list the reasons why I'm wrong.. as I said I'm open to ideas, but keep in mind that weight is a massive priority.

[welshpug 1,626]

I wouldn't get hung up on bore/stroke ratios.

 

the XU10 is the same as the K20A, but they behave quite differently.

[Cameron 16]

You're comparing a fixed timing engine to an i-VTEC though, not exactly apples with apples!

 

XU10 is iron block so that's out the window, and I want to avoid XU engines altogether otherwise I'd just keep my current one! EW10 is under-square, it's a characteristic I'd like to avoid if possible.

[davenport 51]

I spy chatter marks, fail!

 

 

hahahahahah i knew you`d spot that...

[Sandy 189]

You can build the Honda without VTEC or VTC, but it's there and it works (brilliantly), so no need to junk it. I can't go into too much detail about the Duratec, but suffice to say it's an engine built to a price, that isn't all that reliable. The standard components won't get you far in tuning terms, so there's no middle ground cost wise, it's either a near standard engine or you have to change everything to make it any better, the standard rods/pistons/crank are guff, where as with the Honda K, you can get into a great middle ground tuning wise, with simple changes like cams and/or TBs without getting seriously into internals. The Duratec valvetrain has several major headaches, some of which can be solved quite easily, but some of which need major, major re-working to solve and the inlet ports, although they "flow" well (a rather misleading parameter, the folly of engine building by numbers), mean tuning the engine for a broad and genuinely responsive delivery, without perilously aggressive and damaging cam profiles, is virtually impossible.

Given that you have such a wide choice of engines you could use, it seems a shame to limit yourself.

[Cameron 16]

I don't mind changing engine internals Sandy, I'm assuming it's a given to be competitive. I've got a budget of around 5-6k for the engine work.

 

What's the RWD gearbox choice like for the Honda engines, is it limited to the S2000 or are there others? I can just imagine anything Honda being that bit more expensive, especially if I was looking for sequential boxes.

[Sandy 189]

£5-6k won't be enough for a reliable and effective Duratec parts and machining list, about double that. But it'll easily fund a circa 250bhp and grunty K20, that's my point. S2000 box is a great box, but not bolt on with the K20 (S2000 engine is the F20C, different engine), K20 bellhousings available for all regular RWD gearbox applications, same as Duratec etc etc.