Gti-6 Engine Or Mi16

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Just blocks.

 

It's a huge difference if you've tried lifting them; even with Cameron's NASA and Caltech certified arms.

[zebedy101 0]

Gti6 with 6 speed box would weigh a considerable amount more surely? but then you have a tad bit more power and torque with the Gti6 to compensate. The real winner surely is a hybrid like Cams?

[hothatch 2]

16kg difference between the XU10 iron block versus alloy block with liners.

 

wow 16ks quite a bit .

[Baz 421]

I can lift an Mi on my own, a '6 i most definitely cannot.

[Daviewonder 533 3 Cars]

I carried a 2.0 HDI block about 15 foot and I got the shakes and had to go home for a lye down The ally Mi wasn't too bad IIRC.

[Paul_13 212 1 Cars]

I can lift an Mi on my own, a '6 i most definitely cannot.

 

MAN UP!!!

 

Only joking Baz

 

I think the way forward if you got time is a hybrid like Cameron's, or get yourself a decent MI if your looking to save weight....

Edited April 29, 2010 by Paul_13

[Cameron 16]

I could lift and carry my whole Mi16 engine downstairs, I couldn't even lift the GTi6 bottom end by myself!

 

16kgs is a lot when you think about it, almost twice the weight of a battery and people seem to think one of those matters enough to move to the boot.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Gti6 with 6 speed box would weigh a considerable amount more surely? but then you have a tad bit more power and torque with the Gti6 to compensate. The real winner surely is a hybrid like Cams?

 

'6 'box is a waste of time in my mind. The lock on my ZX with this box is s*ite to the right, and having been with Superjosh in his 205 with a '6 box I don't think there's any benefit personally.

 

Also on benefits, when this subject was covered before (and I'm sure it was...) I proposed that IMO I don't think there's a great advantage in the '6 head over the Mi/S16 head.

 

There MAY be something available in getting CRs over 12:1, but there are other potential risks associated with the piston to valve clearance and the strength of the valves themselves.

 

I'm sure Cam's and others' with a GTI6 head / alloy block combo work very well, but I don't think people should assume that the Mi/S16 head can't achieve similar or even better results.

 

I have a feeling a GTI6 would be 'beaten' by the Mi16 alloy block with Mi16 head and 10.8:1 CR engine on Motronic 1.3 and a '6 inlet like I'm building in my 'Tandem Build' thread, and perhaps by a clear margin. Perhaps we will see one day soon.

 

I really think it's down to what you can get hold of as the end results will be very similar. Ultimately as long as it works reliably, and isn't mated to a GTI6 'box I think anyone will have a whale of a time driving either.

[Baz 421]

Bore wear, chocolate valves, weak valve stems, cambelt failure...

 

Just a few more for the against side of '6s.

[Cameron 16]

Bah! All this hate for the 6 speed box!

 

Personally, I love mine. The ratios are brilliant and the steering issue really isn't as bad as people make out! Ok so I can't forward park to the right if it's a tight space, but it's not like I have to do 3-point turns at mini roundabouts or anything it's perfectly fine to live with.

[SurGie 54]

Im one for the GTI 5, better than the 6 for a number of reasons, and you lot man up ffs, i can carry a 6 any day of the week piece of piss

(with a little help from my friends)

 

MI16 = oil surge, knackered shells, experience showed me this and the 6/VTS is more refined IMO. There are ways to combat this as well as all the 6's weakness's. Plus the MI is too much older for me TBH. All engines have a weakness of some sort, if you look after it well i think any one would be good enough.

 

I feel most people like the MI because its closer to the 205 era, ie 405, could be wrong though, as well as the 1.9 lightness of them. But then the VTS engine in a 205 is just as good with the proper suspension upgrades.

Edited April 30, 2010 by SurGie

[Baz 421]

Im one for the GTI 5, better than the 6 for a number of reasons, and you lot man up ffs, i can carry a 6 any day of the week piece of piss

(with a little help from my friends)

 

MI16 = oil surge, knackered shells, experience showed me this and the 6/VTS is more refined IMO. There are ways to combat this as well as all the 6's weakness's. Plus the MI is too much older for me TBH. All engines have a weakness of some sort, if you look after it well i think any one would be good enough.

 

I feel most people like the MI because its closer to the 205 era, ie 405, could be wrong though, as well as the 1.9 lightness of them. But then the VTS engine in a 205 is just as good with the proper suspension upgrades.

 

6's aren't as old, but have their fair share of issues already, hence my reasoning above. Coupled with the weight, and pure characteristics of Mi's, i'd have one everytime over a lardy chocolate 6.

 

Mi's oli surge is arguably a myth (flamesuit donned!/can of worms?) and nackered shells no more than any other engine, unless of course you suffer this oil surge...

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

Mi16 all the way.

[brumster 135 1 Cars]

I've got both.

Firstly, let's look at if you're planning on dropping this engine into a standard road car and not messing with it (ie. tuning it up).

In this case, I would say mi16 - I like the character of it, the maintenance is simple and as has been said, it's a little lighter so no need to faff around with front spring rates or worry about handling/performance issues (not that I honestly believe there are any). The oil surge issues are a pure chance as to whether you'll suffer, but are certainly not a definite, and I'm sure are more down to bodged installs or poorly rebuilt lumps than anything else. If you're worried put a PTS baffle in there, and then don't be. Nuff said.

 

If you're talking an engine you want to tune up to 200bhp but no more, then the mi16 still wins favour with me. However once you want to breach that 200 mark, and/or you're talking a car with competition/track focus and adjustable suspension, then all the penalties of the heavier XU10 go out of the window. I would consider XU10J4's (S16s) as well as GTi6 lumps (RSs), there really isn't that much to whoop about and if you're fettling the head anyway you can get plenty big enough figures out of the S16 head. Downside is they'll probably need a rebore but at least the blocks are plentiful. You could get similar numbers out of an mi16 but it will cost you exponentially more money than the simple bore work on an XU10. And you'll always have that 100cc deficit on the mi16 unless you fancy expensive liners and some new pistons.

 

There, an honest answer - the 'best' is purely down to what you are using it for. To have got the power and torque I'm getting out of my S16, out of my mi16, would simply have cost a fortune to address that cc deficit. With adjustable suspension the extra 16Kg simply make bugger all difference. The XU10 fits the bill better. But if it was just a road car in unfettled trim, the mi16 would be the better choice IMHO.

 

And I still have the mi16 as my 'spare' should I ever need it, it's such a corker I'm loathe to get rid of it

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

Mi's oli surge is arguably a myth (flamesuit donned!/can of worms?) and nackered shells no more than any other engine, unless of course you suffer this oil surge...

 

I'd tend to agree. My Mi16 track car has being doing trackdays for the last 5 years with nothing more than a very simple baffle plate in the sump.

[djc 0]

Old skool Mi all the way, its the correct era for the car & looks fantastic with 45 DCOE's hanging off the front. NOTHING can beat that look or sound in a 205.

[gixxerash 0]

I have, with my arms accurate to 0.001 tonnes. I found that the Mi16 block weighed 0.notmuch whereas the GTi6 block weighed exactly 1 s*itload. That's a difference of 0.waytoomuch.

 

haha very good

[Cameron 16]

[24seven 104]

Oil surge is an odd one. I get very little if any noticeable surge on my current 1.9 Mi16 as long as I keep on top of the oil level. Then again this is my 2nd Mi16 engine because oil surge killed the last one. On the road I don't think there's a lot to worry about at least. Similarly for the road the only reason I'd take a '6 over an Mi16 is for the management. Motronic is a pain to live with once sensors and AFM's inevitable become worn out, and it's not the smoothest running system when everything's 100% either. The management used on the '6 engine is far FAR superior.

[hothatch 2]

Oil surge is an odd one. I get very little if any noticeable surge on my current 1.9 Mi16 as long as I keep on top of the oil level. Then again this is my 2nd Mi16 engine because oil surge killed the last one. On the road I don't think there's a lot to worry about at least. Similarly for the road the only reason I'd take a '6 over an Mi16 is for the management. Motronic is a pain to live with once sensors and AFM's inevitable become worn out, and it's not the smoothest running system when everything's 100% either. The management used on the '6 engine is far FAR superior.

 

well said ! somes it right up.

 

you could live with mi16 for track use but the gti6 works better in a road car for everyday to day driving due to relibilty. mi16 everyday would be hard work as most of you would know more than me due to relieing on mechanical sensors rather than electronic.

 

although the mi16 has the fun factor by the sounds of things. i havnt been lucky enough to find out but im sure my 6 conversion will not fail to pleae. hopfully !

[kate205gti 4]

ive owned both (3 of each ) and taken both on track and from personal experience the mi16 needed revving higher to get power, i did suffer oil surge with my mi16 that blew one up, another also snapped a conrod bolt and made a nice whole in the block think the other one was head gasket the GTi6 engine was much more torquey lower down but the pistons are made of chocolate, blew one up on the rollers at emerald one lost compression, other one tensioner went randomly one day - dont think i have much luck with 16v engines

 

having said that next engine will be another gti6 because i personally found it much nicer to drive depends on your driving style i guess!

[24seven 104]

well said ! somes it right up.

 

you could live with mi16 for track use but the gti6 works better in a road car for everyday to day driving due to relibilty. mi16 everyday would be hard work as most of you would know more than me due to relieing on mechanical sensors rather than electronic.

 

although the mi16 has the fun factor by the sounds of things. i havnt been lucky enough to find out but im sure my 6 conversion will not fail to pleae. hopfully !

 

 

I can't comment on a '6 engine'd 205 for fun, but the sound of an Mi and the fact that it constantly begs to be revved makes it fantastic fun to drive! Certainly more encouraging than a standard RS in a 306 is, but then as I say 306's and 205's are too different to compare. I'm definitely considering selling my spare Mi16 in bits and getting a '6 engine for a 309 I've got coming soon.

[hothatch 2]

I can't comment on a '6 engine'd 205 for fun, but the sound of an Mi and the fact that it constantly begs to be revved makes it fantastic fun to drive! Certainly more encouraging than a standard RS in a 306 is, but then as I say 306's and 205's are too different to compare. I'm definitely considering selling my spare Mi16 in bits and getting a '6 engine for a 309 I've got coming soon.

 

good on you, you would of had best of both worlds then ! lucky get ! lol

[hothatch 2]

ive owned both (3 of each ) and taken both on track and from personal experience the mi16 needed revving higher to get power, i did suffer oil surge with my mi16 that blew one up, another also snapped a conrod bolt and made a nice whole in the block think the other one was head gasket the GTi6 engine was much more torquey lower down but the pistons are made of chocolate, blew one up on the rollers at emerald one lost compression, other one tensioner went randomly one day - dont think i have much luck with 16v engines

 

having said that next engine will be another gti6 because i personally found it much nicer to drive depends on your driving style i guess!

 

AND YOU!!!! lol dont tell me stuff like that now ! 'pistons are made like chocolate haha' i hope you drive yours very hard indeed lol because im not intending to melt any pistons haha

[Baz 421]

It's true unfortunately, pistons have a habit of melting, valve stems are weak, cambelts and idlers have a habit of failing, and they like a bit of bore wear...

 

The argument that 6's are newer and therefore better condition etc, doesn't have any standing these days IMO.

 

Edit, oops, i've already said most of that haven't i.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Baz