Just Did My First Trackday...

[Quarryman 1]

Had a blast. The 20 year old French engineering held up great.

 

One issue i seemed to have was lack of grip coming out of corners.

 

When i put the foot down at the end of a corner i was getting much traction. I'm pretty sure this was due to the suspension setup. I have stock suspension and there was noticeable roll.

 

I had pretty good tyres on the car so doubt that contributed too much.

 

What should i look at upgrading?

 

Check out the pics below:

 

[swordfish210 20]

Well if you cant afford a LSD then you should be looking at reducing the body roll. If the roll on the exit of the corners is reduced then the amount of weight on the inside wheel will be greater than it is now and as a result the engine will find it harder to break traction on the inside wheel.

 

It can be temptig to simpley fit a fatter ARB to reduce body roll but i think it's not really the way to go without upgrading other suspension components. I would start with some Bilstein GrpN dampers and some decent springs and you should see a good improvement. What tyres are you using as well?

[C_W 3 1 Cars]

Stiffer roll bars front and rear will probably make things worse as they load up the outerside wheel even more. A stiffer rear roll bar will probably help though without affecting traction. That and some lower/stiffer front springs probably help.

[Cameron 16]

Hopefully you know not to just give it a bootfull out of the corners, as that's a recipe for wheelspin and understeer. Make sure you're nice and progressive on the throttle on your way out the corners.

 

A set of bilstein sport shocks and springs would be a good idea, but you really need to be upping both front and rear spring rates. Unfortunately torsion bars are bloody expensive!

[kyepan 291]

A stiff rear anti roll bar, combined with a front strut brace all but eliminated power understeer on my car. Unless you were being really unsubtle with the right foot in the wet.

 

A diff will also help it cling to the road.

Edited February 16, 2010 by kyepan

[McDude 33]

Looks like it's riding fine to me! I guess it depends how many track days you are planning on doing and what compromises you want to keep it a good road car.

[mmt 14]

If you want to be able to track your changes always only change one thing and see it it works.

 

For track use the roll is exessive.

 

I´d start buying stiffer springs and nothing else. Cheap and a easy fit (diy)

 

LSD is the next level!

 

Have fun.

 

/Martin

[Baz 421]

Looks like it's riding fine to me! I guess it depends how many track days you are planning on doing and what compromises you want to keep it a good road car.

 

Agreed, bodyroll doesn't look that excessive to me.

 

Here's an example of excessive bodyroll;

 

 

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again, compliance is under-rated. Stiffening things up just pushes the limit of adhesion further...

 

 

So i'd start with tyres, what are you running?

Edited February 16, 2010 by Baz

[Quarryman 1]

Agreed, bodyroll doesn't look that excessive to me.

 

Here's an example of excessive bodyroll;

 

 

 

I've said it before and i'll say it again, compliance is under-rated. Stiffening things up just pushes the limit of adhesion further...

 

 

So i'd start with tyres, what are you running?

 

woah that is a lot of bodyroll, I wasn't getting anything like that.

 

I'm running falken ze912s. They've got decent reviews in wet and dry and are by no means budget rubber.

 

Also since this was my first trip on the track in it (in anything really) I guess might not have been driving it properly. I just wanted to get more power down leaving a corner but in reality I might still have been turning out.

 

I think I'll consider springs and maybe better shocks but since the car will mainly be a road car I won't be spending big bucks in case the ride becomes too harsh.

 

Also, I'm picking up a set of 1.9 alloys next week to replace the 14" ones. I'm thinking the ride might harden up from that and maybe even offer more grip with the extra width.

Edited February 16, 2010 by Quarryman

[Baz 421]

I wouldn't change the springs without uprating the dampers tbh.

[Quarryman 1]

I wouldn't change the springs without uprating the dampers tbh.

 

coilovers then? What are the advantages of set of coilovers versus a set of springs and dampers separately? It seems they are merely just a more compact unit.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Quarryman

[davidc 0]

Where abouts did you do your track day at ?

 

Thanks,

David

[Quarryman 1]

Where abouts did you do your track day at ?

 

Thanks,

David

 

mondello, county Kildare.

[Cameron 16]

On the subject of compliance, get some polybushes on there, and some Baker Group N top mounts. They're nice cheap things to sort out.

 

Also as Baz mentioned if you have a tyre with soft sidewalls (i.e. any road tyre) then it's going to feel like you're getting epic body roll even when you've stiffened up all the suspension. There's very little point in increasing roll stiffness if you then have floppy tyres that won't make the most of it. Toyo 888's will feel like a massive improvement, Yoko A048's will be even better. It's an expensive option for something that wears out, but both will be worth every penny, even on standard suspension.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Cameron

[kyepan 291]

i agree with baz that upping spring rates and damping rates will get you closer to the limit of grip at cost of feel. And that tyres wikl help more. Still think that keeping the front body in shape with a brace and the rear roll under control will allow the tyres to be in good quality contact woth the road. As roll will reduce the contact patch. As the roll will gradually increase and the grip decrease because of the above. So you will get both feel and warning of the reduced grip lebels as the car rolls. I would strongly advise against stiffer lower suspension at the front. This will only make things worse.

[TT205 42]

Each to their own I guess - I would do the following and probably one at once

 

1) 23mm rear anti roll bar + Baker Group N top mounts + solid rear beam mounts

 

2) Better front and rear dampers + slightly stiffer front springs

 

3) LSD

 

 

Then maybe later

 

Thicker rear torsion bars + even stiffer front springs

 

Then ..... stickier tyres

[kyepan 291]

i agree with baz that upping spring rates and damping rates will get you closer to the limit of grip at cost of feel. And that tyres wikl help more. Still think that keeping the front body in shape with a brace and the rear roll under control will allow the tyres to be in good quality contact woth the road. As roll will reduce the contact patch. As the roll will gradually increase and the grip decrease because of the above. So you will get both feel and warning of the reduced grip lebels as the car rolls. I would strongly advise against stiffer lower suspension at the front. This will only make things worse.

sorry for the rubbish post, did that on a mobile.

 

Sticky tyres are good because you're increasing the finite level of grip

Keeping the suspension working correctly in dynamic situations and the contact patches stable will allow you to access that grip when cornering. Hence my suggestion of a rear anti roll bar. It does increase the spring rate in the corners because it will pre load the inside wheel with more of the force coming through the outside wheel. but it's a trade off.

 

 

Yer i think we are differing in opinion here, whilst lowering and stiffening may be more effective at allowing accessible harder cornering, and get you round the track quicker, ideally you want to use as little spring and damping as you can get away with.

 

Both stiffening the front and killing the passive rear steer on my car with solid beam mounts made it boring to drive, dulled the turn in and it became lifeless at the back, much safer and more stable, but not as fun, i've now had to go through the process of neggy camber front / rear, stiffer rear arb, stiffer rear torsion bars, and neutral track at the back to redress the feel. I have nearly ended up back where i started.. abet with much more grip. This has probably cost in excess of £2000 including the diff.

 

with hindsight. If i was in this chaps position and wanted fun on a track day i would try to retain as much of the original set up as possible, with a few minor tweaks to aid the chassis in helping keep the contact patches stable.

[Baz 421]

Each to their own I guess - I would do the following and probably one at once

 

1) 23mm rear anti roll bar + Baker Group N top mounts + solid rear beam mounts

 

2) Better front and rear dampers + slightly stiffer front springs

 

3) LSD

 

 

Then maybe later

 

Thicker rear torsion bars + even stiffer front springs

 

Then ..... stickier tyres

 

I'd agree with that too. Sticky tyres to come later.

 

 

I'm on the fence about recommending sticky tyres to people on standard suspension, unless you don't like them...

[davidc 0]

I'd agree with that too. Sticky tyres to come later.

 

 

I'm on the fence about recommending sticky tyres to people on standard suspension, unless you don't like them...

 

sticky tyres on std suspension = even more body roll

 

 

stiffer/uprated suspension with std road tyres = car sliding about (understeer/oversteer)

 

Personally...I'd be fitting the sticky tyres AFTER the suspension has been uprated as theres no point in wearing out expensive rubber on std suspension with the car rolling about.

 

 

Just my thoughts....

[Baz 421]

Not to mention the increased risk of rolling the car.

[davidc 0]

Not to mention the increased risk of rolling the car.

 

Have to agree there Baz...if it takes a bite on sticky tyres & std suspension you'll just be a passenger !!

 

I competed in the Scottish Tarmac Championship a few years ago in a 205 1.9 Gti Group 'N' spec car that was basically std, not even an LSD but it did have Bilsteins. We initially ran Yoko A032R's which were nice n sticky but they wore away very quickly, on one event, a new set were nearly bald but.....we then went to Colway F2's as the car wasn't competitive & I didnt see much point in shelling out for sticky (wears easier) rubber.....the difference was that on the Colways we had a lot more fun & had a different driving style having to slide the car around more (great for tight hairpins with handbrake, etc) but admittedly it was a bit slower. I was more used to driving Mk1/2 Escorts sideways & found the 205 with the hard Bilstein suspension and hard Colways it was excellent fun to drive....just my experience !!

[Cameron 16]

sticky tyres on std suspension = even more body roll

 

No. The only way you'll be getting more body roll is through going faster round the corner, since roll angle is a product of lateral acceleration and COG height (and sus geometry although that will be the same). So you may be getting more body roll but it's only through going quicker in the first place.

 

Sticky tyres means stiffer sidewalls (generally), which means less tyre deflection and a smaller roll angle. You'll still get the same body roll angle when cornering at the same speeds, but because you've reduced the tyre sidewall deflection the actual roll angle will be less. This is because before you would be getting body roll angle + sidewall deflection. And if you don't think sidewall deflection adds up to much, take a look at some pics of cars on road tyres cornering at speed!

 

Yes you won't make the most of the sticky tyres on standard suspension, but to say it will make things worse is ridiculous!

Edited February 17, 2010 by Cameron

[Rippthrough 98]

Problem with that - sticky tyres = not cornering at same speeds. That sidewall deflection is giving you some nice, progressive warning that you're pushing too far...

Edited February 17, 2010 by Rippthrough

[Cameron 16]

I don't know, I found my A048's to be progressive enough. Well that was before swapping front & rear tyres when it span like a top with no warning.

[Rippthrough 98]

I don't know, I found my A048's to be progressive enough. Well that was before swapping front & rear tyres when it span like a top with no warning.