A Nice Little Tale Of Woe For All Those Who Are Struggling

[kyepan 291]

Does it sound like the starter spinning round? (Whirring noise?)

Or it could be it's pushing the cog out but it's not turning it.

hey dude,

 

it's pushing the cog out we think (although i'll chechk tomorrow)

it spins some times and not others..

 

thanks for the offer, but i've got two other starters on the bench, to try.

 

cheers

 

j

[kyepan 291]

well..

 

found some other issues to fix, like the routing of cables, routing of fuel hose etc, as these were not the best, the vac hose for the brakes was also routed past the top of the alternator, and it's been worn down by the alternator a bit.. found the earths on the headlights, one was in excellent condition because it had the plastic boot on it still, and the other was not so this came off, and was fixed.

 

anyway back to the main event.. and hold on to your hats because if you need sleep.. keep reading, its a real fire cracker.

 

More multimetering with the rad off to get access to the starter solenoid, with the starter off, the end of the wire is broken, hence the sometimes no start, and no nothing following cranking, the movement of the engine must be enough to make an intermittent s*ite connection, a non connection. So this whole episode is actually my fault, because when i put the starter on, the direction of the solenoid wire ring connector poked things and thus broke the wire over time.. Lesson learned, send the wires into free space.

 

Time to run a by pass wire, which it turns out i can do, without affecting the alarm, and so i did.. except I cut and soldered the wrong end, so when it came to test... nothing. Luckily i listened to GLP, may god rest his soul, and ran a secondary wire , which started just fine on the positive battery terminal. Soldering is hard, especially if you tin everything up first, as it takes a while to get the respective bits hot enough to melt the solder.. a bit of swearing and general burnt fingers later, we were in business..

 

Started it several times just trying off the key, which eventually elicited a non start click... to which I say...

 

WELL HELLO MRS STARTER BUTTON. like a magic button of joy a love button, clitical to starting, giver of pleasure, easily stimulated always ready to produce the results i need.

 

broom..

 

ahem

 

so it would seem there is an issue with the ignition barrel after all.

 

also, got some new liquid metal, to fix the slight water leak (crack in block) and it appears to be holding. Put some down once mixed to apply a bit to the block and was quite shocked that it went off in about a minute, and was rock hard in about half an hour

 

Result.

 

feel better than yesterday, need to give a couple of passenger rides to the neighbours who still do not understand why i am always under the bonnet of the rot box, with the nice silver slipper mx-5 parked across the drive way... they do not understand the sweat blood and tears this car has over me.

 

 

J

[Galifrey 1]

My 1.6 is doing the same thing as yours!

 

I had already bought a full set of locks including ignition switch, as the door lock has a different key to the rest of the car and is knackered.

 

I had started to suspect some black wire corrosion somewhere in the electrics, once I get the ignition switch in (hopefully tomorrow) I will let you know if it improves!

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I'm glad you got it fixed J.

 

But you are a drama queen aren't you?

 

'We' suggested the solenoid wire friggin' yonks ago and you said it was okay.

 

But as is often the case two or more things conspire against us, and so replacing or changing a 20 year old ignition barrel now and again seems to be a top tip to remember.

[kyepan 291]

I'm glad you got it fixed J.

 

But you are a drama queen aren't you?

 

'We' suggested the solenoid wire friggin' yonks ago and you said it was okay.

 

But as is often the case two or more things conspire against us, and so replacing or changing a 20 year old ignition barrel now and again seems to be a top tip to remember.

yep, it's a winner for sure, dad kept on about other things, and i was convinced i could not bridge it because of the alarm, but yes, solenoid wire is the main route cause of the issue.

 

Am quite glad in general, so glad i'm going to fit the new door today.. one without a great whacking dent in it.

 

J

[Galifrey 1]

yep, it's a winner for sure, dad kept on about other things, and i was convinced i could not bridge it because of the alarm, but yes, solenoid wire is the main route cause of the issue.

 

Am quite glad in general, so glad i'm going to fit the new door today.. one without a great whacking dent in it.

 

J

 

Good info to know, will check mine today, I am sure it was fine until I had the alarm fitted, so maybe that has something to do with it, may have to call out the fitter again. Got to drive it to Miles at some stage, so don't want it breaking down

[kyepan 291]

Good info to know, will check mine today, I am sure it was fine until I had the alarm fitted, so maybe that has something to do with it, may have to call out the fitter again. Got to drive it to Miles at some stage, so don't want it breaking down

 

Yep, it depends where the fitter has bridged into the alarm, if it's before the ignition, then you can take the feed off the back of the ignition switch and straight to the starter.. if not you'll need to bridge it after the alarm.. have a look under the dash near the fuse board to find out where he has bridged. Routing the cable into the existing loom is probably the hardest bit, as the protective covering corrigated stuff hurts like hell to open etc, also soldering takes time to get things hot enough to tin up and get a good non dry joint. Getting it through the bulkhead was easy, straightened bit of stiff wire poked it through easily. I used maplins high current equiptment wire, it comes on a reel and has about 5mm outside diameter.

 

i'm pretending to be some kind of expert.. but am not.. so it's probably best if you have a look for yourself to see how your alarms been wired in.

 

J

[Galifrey 1]

Yep, it depends where the fitter has bridged into the alarm, if it's before the ignition, then you can take the feed off the back of the ignition switch and straight to the starter.. if not you'll need to bridge it after the alarm.. have a look under the dash near the fuse board to find out where he has bridged. Routing the cable into the existing loom is probably the hardest bit, as the protective covering corrigated stuff hurts like hell to open etc, also soldering takes time to get things hot enough to tin up and get a good non dry joint. Getting it through the bulkhead was easy, straightened bit of stiff wire poked it through easily. I used maplins high current equiptment wire, it comes on a reel and has about 5mm outside diameter.

 

i'm pretending to be some kind of expert.. but am not.. so it's probably best if you have a look for yourself to see how your alarms been wired in.

 

J

 

Well I went to fit the new ignition lock today, and couldn't because the alarm has been wired into the ignition lock tails. Would need to reopen all the wires and rewire into the new lock tails.

 

At least I managed to fit the drivers door lock, so I can get into the car in less than 5 minutes now. I am sure some yobbo with a screwdriver could have got in faster than I could with a key!

 

I would have thought that wiring into the main loom would have been better as surely just plugging in a new lock bypasses a chunk of the alarm wiring?

 

Anyway, no doubt Miles will be cursing it come engine wiring time.

[kyepan 291]

this car always gives a bitter sweet experience.

 

It passed it's MOT yesterday with NO advisorys... although the tester had to rev it to get it through the idle emissions as it was high on the HC test, he also spotted the right hand braided hose was a bit short (it's the one i could not get undone when i put the longer hoses on for the 307 calipers.

 

anyway.. it's still not starting when hot, it just keeps turning over and over, i've double checked the connections on the fuel pump relay, and it's the 3rd relay so definitly not the problem.

 

I do know that in this situation, the pressure takes ages to get up to where it will start. I've also changed the pump..

 

 

could the high HC reading at idle be an indication of a leaky fuel pressure regulator?

 

other than that it didn't miss a beat, and went like a bloody rocket.

[Anthony 1,000]

could the high HC reading at idle be an indication of a leaky fuel pressure regulator?

High hydrocarbons (HC) is basically unburnt fuel, which I'd say will be atleast partly down to the inlet cam that you've got. What was the CO figure?

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

an indication of a leaky fuel pressure regulator

 

 

Do you mean air? Surely not fuel? (And yes, I'll stop calling you Shirley).

 

Good news is, providing you depressurise the system that FPR's piss easy to change if it's the clip in type like on a GTI6 rail. I can't remember the Mi one; is that clip in?

 

At least it's all turning over properly at last. But is it flooding now?

[kyepan 291]

 

Do you mean air? Surely not fuel? (And yes, I'll stop calling you Shirley).

 

Good news is, providing you depressurise the system that FPR's piss easy to change if it's the clip in type like on a GTI6 rail. I can't remember the Mi one; is that clip in?

 

At least it's all turning over properly at last. But is it flooding now?

 

 

allo rich,

 

 

the fpr is vacuum activated right, but it can leak one of two ways from what i have read, either you get a leak in the hose from inlet to the vacuum take off on the bottom of the fpr, like you said, leading to incorrect metering of the fuel, or the diaphram in the FPR gets perforated and fuel leaks back into the inlet enriching the mixture.

 

my question would be, if you have a split vac hose, would that lead to the low pressure return being opened or closed.

 

Was chatting with ant yesterday about the other possibilities that could be causing this.

 

Think i've resolved to do the following tests

 

1) check how the fuel pressure rises when bridging the fuel pump relay to see if it is the same as when cranking. As it rises very slowly when cranking then suddenly kicks in.

2) Check the voltage across the fuel pump relay low current circuit when the car is hot, to see if there is crap voltage, this may point to a further wiring issue.

3) Check the pressure on the outlet side of the rail in the same situation to see if something odd is going on on the return leg.

 

another mate thought it might be some kind of vapour lock, as in air getting into the pump when it's hot.. but one would expect if air got in, fuel would get out.. and it's not smelling.

 

 

 

J

[Anthony 1,000]

my question would be, if you have a split vac hose, would that lead to the low pressure return being opened or closed.

If the vacuum hose was split/disconnected, you'd have 3 bar pressure constant - effectively making it significantly overfuel at idle and low-load.

 

The fact that it passed the MOT emissions test suggests this isn't the issue, as overfuelling (thus running rich) would show up as high CO values.

[kyepan 291]

Thanks anthony,

 

In that case i should probably check some of these tests to find out what is going on with the pressure in the system in a bit more detail

 

fuel pressure tests

 

J

[kyepan 291]

Residual Fuel Pressure Test

When the pump is turned off or stops running, the system should hold residual pressure for several minutes (look up the specs to see how much pressure drop is allowed over a given period of time). If pressure drops quickly, the vehicle may have a leaky fuel line, a leaky fuel pump check valve, a leaky fuel pressure regulator or one or more leaky fuel injectors. Low residual fuel pressure can cause hard starting and vapor lock during hot weather.

 

from what i remembered the pressure dropped off almost instantly.... does anyone know what the residual pressure should be over what time or where i can find this information.

Edited September 23, 2009 by kyepan

[kyepan 291]

starting to understand now ant

clicky

[kyepan 291]

this is a similar pressure level to the MI, and it says there should be 21psi in the system up to 5 mins after...

 

It would seem there is a leak somewhere, or perhaps a vapour lock forming.

 

 

 

I'll do the tests anyway, then check and possibly start replacing fuel hose.

 

Does anyone know how much a set of under body fuel hoses cost?

Edited September 23, 2009 by kyepan

[kyepan 291]

please excuse my ramblings... but i think i may have an answer.. and as usual it's reliability centered maintainence.

 

 

Lets assume when i changed the pump i did not put the pump pipe fittings on well enough.. and they are leaking a bit... when the engine stops fuel would drain back down into the tank, drawing air in... hence creating an air lock and making it hard to start... the longer it's left the more air will bleed in..

 

Me thinks i need to check the connections on the tank, and the hoses from the tank to hard hoses.. those connections, and the connections at the other end.

 

what say you all>?

[Anthony 1,000]

Yup, checking the fuel lines for evidence of leaking would be a good start - it's not so much an airlock that's the issue I suspect, but (unless I've missed something in your various updates) sounds like the fuel pressure is draining away once the engine is switched off, meaning you need to crank the engine over for several seconds until the pump has repressurised the fuel system.

[kyepan 291]

Injectors are not leaking, have also changed all the o rings. Primed the system with them off the manifold and they are as dry as a bone.

 

Fuel pressure regulator vacuum take off whiffs of fuel a bit but holds vacuum, the vac hose is a bit old but again thatt holds vacuum.

 

So put the gauge in and primed the system then stopped the pump. Pressure fell immediately to zero, to check if it was the fpr I got some mole grips and once it was up to pressure snapped them on the line to isolare from the rail to the pump. the pressure fell immediately so there must be a leak.

 

Then tested the rail to the fpr by moving the mole grips to the other side of the gauge. This time the pressure only decayed very slowly its still at 20psi as I write this on my mobile after about ten minutes.

 

So there is a leak somewhere between the pump and the rail, I can see some traces of fuel on the underside of the tank so it might be the flexy hoses. Will replace them now,

 

Cheers j

[kyepan 291]

confused.com to say the least.

 

long story short, replaced the feed pipe from the outlet of the tank to the hard pipe under the car, new clips bla bla bla. and it made no difference.

 

so I went back over the pipes with some mole grips to block things at various points with the gauge back in line and see where it was holding pressure.

 

the most interesting iteration was when i blocked the pipe just after the pump outlet once it was up to pressure,and it held pressure all the way to the rail including FPR.. so that essentially means it's not a pipe leak...

 

Double checked the rail in isolation, and that also held pressure, the regulator is doing it's job fine... as previously stated.

 

Then because i wanted to check the non return valve on the pump I attached a foot pump just before the rail, with the gauge in line, and pumped the whole fuel feed including filter up to 40psi... and to my complete astonishment it held the pressure.

 

When fluid is in the system the pump does not hold the pressure on the non return valve, but pump it up with a mix of air and fluid and it's solid as a rock.

I even thought about checking the breathers for the tank, because if there was a build up of vacuum it might fox the return valve..

 

I'm so completely confused.

 

Also this is a new pump, so either two pumps non return valves aren't working or... I have no idea...

bosch fuel pump thingy page

This type of high pressure fuel pump is denoted as a roller cell pump, with the fuel entering the pump and being

compressed by rotating cells that force it through the pump at high pressure. The pump is capable of producing a pressure

of 8 bar (120 psi) with a delivery rate of approximately 4 to 5 litres per minute.

Within the pump is a pressure relief valve that lifts off its seat at 8 bar to arrest the pressure should the filter, fuel lines or

other eventualities cause it to become obstructed. The other end of the pump (output) is home to a non-return valve that,

when the voltage to the pump is removed, closes the return and maintains pressure within the system, as illustrated in

figure 6.1.

 

does anyone know how removing voltage from the pump would cause this valve to close.

 

Rest pressure is the fuel pressure maintained in the system by the fuel accumulator after engine shutdown. The fuel accumulator is a large spring-loaded diaphragm that maintains a pressure of about 1.5 to 2.0 bar for 30 minutes or more after engine shutdown. This rest pressure provides for fast restart and prevents fuel percolation or boiling (vapor lock). Always check the service manual for the car line you are working on for proper rest pressures and times. Typical symptoms caused by accumulator problems are extended crank time and hard start hot.

 

 

 

really am very stuck, and quite frustrated.

Edited September 26, 2009 by kyepan

[kyepan 291]

so... it's been a while.

 

still haven't done the door.

 

I have however traced the wire from the fuel pump to the engine bay, where it joins a long piece of coiled up loom.

 

between the loom and the fuel pump there are no fewer than 5 joins in a single wire.

 

I'll post a pic of it.

 

Now i have two joins, one at the pump and one at the loom.

 

Plus the wire is all sealed back into the loom. I havehowever managed to stop the front indicators working

[kyepan 291]

Forgot to mention, my Hunch was that all the poo connections were causing the hot start issue because the pump was not getting enough voltage to prime.

 

This however was incorrect.

 

cause of slow to start when hot... still unknown

 

If anyone has an MI so we can put the fuel gauge on it, i would be most grateful.

 

J

[kyepan 291]

it's been a couple of months since my last post... things that have gone wrong since

 

Sump bolts tried to undo themselves again, this time they were nipped up with considerably more force

Window switch on the drivers side has died and the window is very reluctant to go up, this need changing when i swap the door

water leak continues to seep from the block, need to get the other engine ready.

 

I managed to put the rear ARB in slightly wrong so it's sitting skew at the back.

 

The exaust is falling off on almost a daily basis, need to lock wire it on according to anthony's advice, he also noticed the gear linkage was... sloppy.

 

On investigation, the pivot bolt had nearly fallen out, there was untold ammounts of oily gunk all over, in and under it, it would not even do up because of this.

 

Took it off, cleaned the whole area, put back together, i now have a very solid gear linkage.

 

 

Oh and the fan resistor died again, my heath robinson fix did not work.

Once again Anthony came to the rescue with a spare, the fan also needed regreasing.

 

and for those wondering if a 4 pin fan resistor works on a five pin setup. Yes, it's also a different design without the sprung loaded clip that seems to get covered in muck.

 

J

[Super Josh 4]

and for those wondering if a 4 pin fan resistor works on a five pin setup. Yes, it's also a different design without the sprung loaded clip that seems to get covered in muck.

 

The only difference between the 4 and 5 pin fan control modules is that the 5 pin one has a built in relay that bypasses the internal electronics at the full speed setting. Without this extra voltage drop you get a slightly faster full speed setting

 

 

 

Josh