Sandy Brown/ Colin Satchell Throttle Bodies

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Rich, your a top geezer and I dont want to see you get shot down in flames! Some of the technical advice you have posted I dont think is sometimes accurate or potentially needs almost a disclaimer with it to sure its been proved in your circumstance but maybe not others?? Do you get where im comming from?

 

Not an attack and by a long way not me saying I know everything but I think you are flying a little close to the wire on times.

 

Maxi

[Andy F 0]

right i have been through a few a few topics and thought i may as well get myself a coil pack.

 

Thing i dont understand is everyone have bought the 8v XU/TU one that goes near the end of the cams. I understand the gti-6 etc one goes over the plugs. But why is it an 8v one that is used?

 

Thanks

[James_R 3]

Plentiful and about £10 from the scrap yard, also found on 1.8 and 2L ecotec vauxhalls, they're cheap and reliable, only ever had one go bad (it got dropped and cracked the polymer) then use corsa 1.4/1.6 16v leads

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

GTI6 and S16 engines use individual packs (1 per cyl) that sit under a cover on top of the head. These use a cam sensor as mentioned.

 

8v coil packs are 2 coils side-by-side (in one unit like the one you mentioned at the end of the head), which don't need a cam sensor, running happily off just the crank angle sensor (CAS). That's why.

[Andy F 0]

oh i see, thanks for that

 

i did read the bit about corsa leads before, seems to somewhat disgrace a 205 by putting vauxhall bits on it lol

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

oh i see, thanks for that

 

i did read the bit about corsa leads before, seems to somewhat disgrace a 205 by putting vauxhall bits on it lol

 

 

Dont be silly, im running a ford coilpack from a zetec fiesta! Just think of it as giving the poor parts a chance of being part of a good car!

 

Maxi

[Andy F 0]

oh right cool, having a look around ford ones seem slightly cheaper so may get one

 

what leads did you use with the ford one?

 

i take it looks like this?

 

Ebay

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Andy, my advice to you would be to go out and do some research. Both on here (not posting in this topic every 2 mins but searching through old threads) and go looking through scrapyards. Have a look at various coilpacks, mounting bracketts, leads that go with them etc etc. Its much more satisfactory when you conquer problems yourself instead of just asking how to.

 

 

Just to add, that isnt the coilpack I run, sorry!

 

Maxi

Edited June 9, 2009 by maxi

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

ok i have a response from sandy, gonna look at ordering

 

I take it gti-6 injectors are the way to go, has anyone had any luck with setting up the 8 injectors? what coil do you use, gti-6 as well?

 

Gti 6 injectors will most probably be too big for your application. I'm not sure which ones i'm using as Sandy chucked them in for me when he set it up. I initially had Gti6 injectors but Sandy suggested they were too big so they got changed.

 

I also read that Gti6 injectors were the way, but not everything you read on here is true or set in stone !

If your buying one off Sandy then I'd guess that he'd be happy to advise you on the injectors that would best suit your application.

 

I had mine set up initially buy the Ecu supplier and although it was good, I wasn't overly happy with

the performance or responsiveness that I was expecting. I didn't find it any better than the Twin 45's that this setup replaced

A few emails to Sandy and it was took down for him to have a look at. Its now absolutely brilliant.

Extremely responsive, pulls like a train and returns around 36ish mpg on a run !

[Daz_C 8 1 Cars]

ok i have a response from sandy, gonna look at ordering

 

I take it gti-6 injectors are the way to go, has anyone had any luck with setting up the 8 injectors? what coil do you use, gti-6 as well?

 

Gti 6 injectors will most probably be too big for your application. I'm not sure which ones i'm using as Sandy chucked them in for me when he set it up. I initially had Gti6 injectors but Sandy suggested they were too big so they got changed.

 

I also read that Gti6 injectors were the way, but not everything you read on here is true or set in stone !

If your buying one off Sandy then I'd guess that he'd be happy to advise you on the injectors that would best suit your application.

 

I had mine set up initially buy the Ecu supplier and although it was good, I wasn't overly happy with

the performance or responsiveness that I was expecting. I didn't find it any better than the Twin 45's that this setup replaced

A few emails to Sandy and it was took down for him to have a look at. Its now absolutely brilliant.

Extremely responsive, pulls like a train and returns around 36ish mpg on a run !

[Andy F 0]

interesting point about the injectors.

 

Since the engine i am building is not standard by any stretch of imagination i guess i will start with the gti-6 injectors but will carr out some more research to try and understand what i need. My understanding of an injector is its a solenoid that switchs on and off controlled by the ecu . So i would i would have thought the on time could be reduced if the injector is to big?

 

My intention is to get the car mapped on intitial start up and then after around 500 miles by Emerald up in norwich as if there the guys developing the management i would think they would be the best people to map it.

 

So would you say the issues you had were down the quality of the company mapping it?

[Spiky 37]

just becuase someone makes an ecu, doesn't mean they are the best at mapping

 

just like ford making a RS cosworth, the employess aren't the best drivers

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I've had a car mapped at Emerald, have one provisionally booked for a couple of months time, and wouldn't hesitate to take any car of mine there. To be quite honest its a shame Dave only maps Emerald ECU's as otherwise I would take my turbo car with its DTA there, but I totally understand why he only does his own kit. Compared to some horror stories I have heard of people not even being able to watch their car being mapped, when I went to Emerald I took the GF, we both had a thoroughly enjoyable day out, with Dave totally happy to chat and answer questions as we went along. Not to forget all three of us crammed in the front of the Mini trying to keep traction for the power runs!

Edited June 10, 2009 by Tom Fenton

[Alastairh 47]

I've had a car mapped at Emerald, have one provisionally booked for a couple of months time, and wouldn't hesitate to take any car of mine there. To be quite honest its a shame Dave only maps Emerald ECU's as otherwise I would take my turbo car with its DTA there, but I totally understand why he only does his own kit. Compared to some horror stories I have heard of people not even being able to watch their car being mapped, when I went to Emerald I took the GF, we both had a thoroughly enjoyable day out, with Dave totally happy to chat and answer questions as we went along. Not to forget all three of us crammed in the front of the Mini trying to keep traction for the power runs!

 

Agreed. Its a good day out and hes a nice guy.

 

Al

[CaptainK 11]

All this talk and photos of throttle bodies is too much for me. I've been saving for ITBS (from Sandy & Colin) for a while now and still don't have the money. I've got my ECU (DTA) already, but struggling to get the money for the rest of the setup (I blame it on the expenditure of the 205 Eurotrip )

[GilesW 41]

My 2 penny worth having just built up my 263bhp NA Vauxhall 20XE (taper TB's, dry sump, arrows, omegas, blah blah blah):

 

8 injectors (inners & outers) are generally used staged (as said) to optimise atomisation across the rev range.

ie, low revs, injectors far back, air flow slow - fuel drop out.

High revs, injectors by head too close for full (ideal) atomisation so rear injectors mainly used so fuel has more time to properly mix.

 

Now... the phasing and 'mix' of these injectors is an 'art' as engines, the cars (physical installation), the use etc all have an effect on this.

 

 

Altering the injector duty:

Unfortunatly you can't just mess about with size of injectors, types (from other engines), fuel pressure etc. Car manufacurers spend a long time making sure the injector design works for the position, type of engine (forced or NA), at what pressures blah blah blah, to give the best atomisation (spray pattern etc) possible - especially so now emissions are so important.

 

Also you don't really want to get injectors running over (IIRC) 80% duty cycle as they'll max out when the acceleration fueling is added to the map.

Also too low a duty and they simply just won't open long enough to produce a good spray.

 

 

Question for the 8 injectors users:

What engine builds are you using these on? spec/revs/bhp/lb?

 

Intersted as in the vauxhall world you don't really go to 8 injectors until 275bhp+, which means lots of revs and so solid valve train, dry sumps, steel engines etc.

[rapidcossie 0]

 

im selling these if they are any good to anyone.

 

webber 40 throttle bodies

[GilesW 41]

How much for and what do they come with?

Cheers.

[Baz 421]

Weber don't make TB's per se.

 

Put up a for sale thread!

[Sandy 189]

My 2 penny worth having just built up my 263bhp NA Vauxhall 20XE (taper TB's, dry sump, arrows, omegas, blah blah blah):

 

8 injectors (inners & outers) are generally used staged (as said) to optimise atomisation across the rev range.

ie, low revs, injectors far back, air flow slow - fuel drop out.

High revs, injectors by head too close for full (ideal) atomisation so rear injectors mainly used so fuel has more time to properly mix.

 

Now... the phasing and 'mix' of these injectors is an 'art' as engines, the cars (physical installation), the use etc all have an effect on this.

 

 

Altering the injector duty:

Unfortunatly you can't just mess about with size of injectors, types (from other engines), fuel pressure etc. Car manufacurers spend a long time making sure the injector design works for the position, type of engine (forced or NA), at what pressures blah blah blah, to give the best atomisation (spray pattern etc) possible - especially so now emissions are so important.

 

Also you don't really want to get injectors running over (IIRC) 80% duty cycle as they'll max out when the acceleration fueling is added to the map.

Also too low a duty and they simply just won't open long enough to produce a good spray.

 

 

Question for the 8 injectors users:

What engine builds are you using these on? spec/revs/bhp/lb?

 

Intersted as in the vauxhall world you don't really go to 8 injectors until 275bhp+, which means lots of revs and so solid valve train, dry sumps, steel engines etc.

The majority of discussions about twin injectors seem to be in relation to the power benefits and to be perfectly honest; that doesn't concern me as much as the improvements to ease of mapping and response/driveability improvements I've seen using staged twins. It's the same from TBs on a standard engine to the best motors.

[rapidcossie 0]

Weber don't make TB's per se.

 

Put up a for sale thread!

 

 

who makes them then?

 

they have webber badges, seriel numbers and size on them.

 

They will come with linkages and injectors.

 

For sale thread on the way.

[sideways danny 0]

All this twin/8 injector talk is a bit OTT really. You can get modern injectors with FANTASTIC atomisation and excellent low throttle control characteristics, which are perfectly capable of in excess of 300hp worth of fuel delivery. 80% duty limit is a guide, depending on the ECU you're using there's been bugs in the past that cause problems over 80%, but AFAIK they're mostly resolved. There's only really an issue with running high duty cycle for extended periods where the coil may become overheated. Nothing to do with accel fueling whatsoever, there wont be any by the time you get to that sort of duty.

[GilesW 41]

danny I think maybe I didn't type my post correctly - I was talking about people 'making stuff work' on an engine. You're talking about people using the ideal components from the outset.

 

As it seems people are still tending to use GTi6/mi16/circa 1980/90's injectors in these TB set-ups that was what the warning is about.

These maybe the same people who use oversized injectors (cos it sounds good down the pub), drop the FP as it's massively overfueling etc etc (or having them open so short they dont work effictively).

 

As for 80% duty and accel fueling (on an agressive engine as I doubt this thread was intended to be about standard ones) - I must put the Steves right next time I'm down Track and Road.....

 

(and yes I agree re injector life).

[wracing 19]

twin staged injection is not about injecting a massive amount of fuel if it was why would there be a need for 1300cc+ injectors??

 

twin staged injection is about producing a smooth power curve from idle to redline with lumpy cam, tb, massive valves, high compression and other devices that create a unstable gas stream in the intake manifold at the lower rpm.

 

a correctly set up staged injection system can see good fuel atomization and delivery across the rev range.

 

but if you use staged injection bear in mind that its difficult to get the transition between injection banks, to make life easy you must have matched injectors in the banks

 

imo if you run of 80% duty your an idiot....think about it an injector is a coil, coils generate heat. the longer you leave to coil on for the more heat it generates.

density and temperature are inversely proportional therefore by heating fuel you are discharging a 'less dense squirt' into the intake gas stream.

this is one of the many reasons that all injector manufactures advise that injectors should not be run at 80%+ duty

 

you can trigger accel enrich on a programmable ecu by moving the throttle quickly, thus incurring an enrichment and increasing injector duty above what it was running at. i think thats the point some one was trying to make.

 

personally i wouldn't bother with staged injection below 220hp your not going to be running crazy cam and whatnot so its just an unnecessary expense.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

If I may attempt to add something (although I'm nearly as technically capable), it's not about combining injectors to increase ability to put more fuel in as far as I understand it, it's more of a transition of one set to another set in a different position.

 

This is how it was explained to me by both Sandy and Dave at Emerald, that the inner set copes with lower range engine work and the outer set (i.e. in or before the throttle bodies - even outside them in some cases) to cope with the much higher (power) range.

 

This also explains why I was advised to drop down to lower rate injectors, i.e. not 2 sets of GTI6 injectors but 2 sets of XU7JP4 (PSA 1.8 16v Sagems - blue and blacks), and they would be matched sets.

 

So in short I agree that it's not about throwing in more fuel as such, but more a case of delivering the right amount fuel - i.e. not necessarily more - but in the optimum, atomised and mixed fashion. Injector sets way out don't seem to run a car very well at idle and low down, and you can get fuel drop out; I did.

 

The inner set on staged injectors copes with this lower rev range and then as stated, provided the ECU can cope (the Emerald does for sure) and you have decent injectors and more importantly a decent mapper, then they hand over to the outers as they are best positioned to deliver fuel upstream where it can become better atomised and AFAIK the fuel air mixture distributes better in the combustion chamber.

 

So the gains appear not to be solely related to more power, but more performance across the rev range in terms of both throttle response and maybe even fuel economy too, because if set up properly you are helping to remove yet another compromise in the engine and the way it works.

 

As my engine's really about 225-230BHP, I'm on the cusp according to James (WRacing) of staged injectors being worthwhile. When I swap the engine from my red chassis to the new, Colin super duper bling version, I will remove the bungs from my bodies and run a staged set of XU7JP4s and report back as to whether it makes any difference. I have the injectors and it only requires 2 more wires and a half day remap, where we can look to iron out any dips in the torque curve.

Edited June 28, 2009 by DrSarty