[engine_work] Xu9j4 Mi-16 Rebuild

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Dave is a top bloke, he had my 205 down there for a week and fabricated a manifold for me.

 

Maxi

[kyepan 291]

so...seeing as the forum is a bit quiet, lets get on with this.

 

After realising that the engine was making good power and not likely to blow up any time soon, the mayo was down to an old and knackered modine oil cooler, i set about a little personal mission, which I've been chipping away at with the continued and vital help of Paul and Anthony for the past few months, in relative secrecy.

 

I wanted throttle bodies, and not just any old Jenvey longman setup, I wanted the really loud original colin satchel sandy brown esprit bodies. Why i hear you ask? well Anthony reminded me that he heard them coming from several miles away up a welsh valley several years ago, and they sounded rather choice. Listening to them on the sprint car in this video etc etc made me realise i need induction hammer in my life, and lots of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S92HzVgMniU

 

s*it box blue car, with no laqure, quiet exhaust and then Hammer. Approach by stealth, shower the target with multiple independent induction hammers.

 

Going into why the old esprit bodys are so loud. It's because of the shape and length of the trumpets, about 4 inches long and very flared, like a trumpet. It's the sound, i just wanted the sound.

 

Anyway, that wasn't to be, as they are as rare as rocking horse poo, and the only set that did come up had been on a car that was rolled, and had no vacuum take off for a servo.

 

In the end a set of the revised spec 2 design using Bike bodies came up. After discussing it with sandy it became clear that these were superior because of the double injector setup. Not as loud, but pretty good. And also dealing with filters etc was easier because the trumpets were tapped to accept the backplate.

 

So off I went to pug 1 off where they had been removed from that 300bhp 205 "because they were too restrictive" in favour of some swing bin lids and lengths of drain pipe... more fool them.

 

The bodies - gsxr750 srad - dual injector setup, the dual injectors give 7-9 flbs of torque more over the rev range according to sandy. Here are some photos of the offending pipes.

 

Ideally I wanted to drive in somewhere, hand the keys over, and drive out with a mapped setup. Unfortunately, this is not something sandy offers any more, as he's just too busy doing engines for people. Sandy did however agree to make me a brand new loom. So home brew install it is - with some help from Paul and Anthony.

 

only a couple of things to buy, get the loom and bosh, in it goes.

 

 

Some photos - for your viewing pleasure.

 

More to come tomorrow

 

 

Nice holes for hammers to fly out of.

 

quite long - i wonder how those are going to fit.

[welshpug 1,626]

hmmm, that is pretty long! what's the angle like? I fear my cut down gti6 inlet wont curve down far enough to gain decent tract length.

[kyepan 291]

well.... we were basically asking the same question, how well are they going to fit. After a week or so i found myself outside Anthony's place with the inlet manifold off, cutting down a card board box to find out what the clearance was like.

 

For two reasons, how much of the slam panel is going to have to go, up to and including the catch? and the resulting answer to wether i will need bonnet pins to keep the bonnet shut.

 

Secondly, what air filter is going to fit - sandy suggested an ITG JC 40 - sausage - depth to be determined.

 

As you can see on the image below we had marked out the height of each of the jc40s jc4020, jc4040, and jc4060.. which were 45,65, and 95 respectivly from back plate to filter. and it seemed the 4040 was the most sensible

 

It was immediately clear that i would need bonnet pins, and the slam panel would need some surgery from DR A Grinder.

[kyepan 291]

Post trial fit, it became clear that the vacuum take off would not allow a hose to fit on, clearly these would work with a gti-6 top mount, but with the MI top mount they would not allow the brake servo hose to fit.

 

I needed a Tig welder, and someone who can TIG weld. Step forward "The TIG" a mars engineer from Wycombe who happens to be a bit of a genius with the TIG welder, he lathed me up a new tube and welded it on at the angle shown with the pen.

 

All on a sunday morning for 20 quid. Bargain. He was the real deal too, had a big RS500 look a like whale tale cossie in his garage with the most aluminium clad engine bay I have ever seen. Lovely chap, well into his cars. Handy chap to know.

 

have a photo of it on my other phone.. will upload that and a load more progress on tuesday.

Edited June 1, 2012 by kyepan

[kyepan 291]

Fitting the air filter to the bodies.

 

Now i'd got the Jc - 4040 sausage - It was time to cut the back plate and fit them to the trumpets, firstly getting the trumpets out was a mission, as they were stuck in with sealant and refused to budge. Anthony put the trumpet in the vice and twisted the bodies, out they came.

 

Cleaning the trumpets of old silicone was probably the most time consuming task.

 

We also decided to mount the trumpets centrally, with the tabs for the filter securing screws upside down, just to make sure there were no bonnet clearance issues. This makes undoing the screws a bit fiddly, and the lettering upside down, but ultimately gives us the clearance we needed.

 

Engineers blue, a scribe and punch, then lots of fun with a big hole saw later. The drill stank so bad we had to leave the garage, twice. Then some more holes that allowed the tapped threads in the back of the trumpets to be screwed into.

 

The some cutting down of the cap head bolts, and washer fitting, as the holes we drilled were too small and not precise enough, we had to widen them.

 

Smidge of silicone here and there to seal it up. and we were away.

 

Winner.

[kyepan 291]

additionally, although i've already posted about the Maniflow, not really explained why. I wanted a decent manifold, as i was on a standard system, but also wanted to keep the system itself standard, or as quiet as standard. sandy recommended I get an exhaust manifold with longer primaries to work with the body setup. After ringing around to a few places, anywhere could have done it (Simpson exhausts quoted 1400 for a full stainless system) but Dave at maniflow has the jigs already as it's similar to the old 405 mi-16 BTCC design they used to produce. Dave told me the exhaust is completely wasted on such a mild spec engine, that went sailing in one ear and out the other.

 

Anyway - the manifold is great, but my standard system is - not fitting very well, and the centre box is on it's last legs. Booked in for a full stainless system from manifold back and llamda boss.. very soon. Tom (cheese grater) has the exact same system, and it's very quiet. He also approved of the welding the chap did. So exhaust is going to be slightly not standard, but as quiet as standard.

 

Cheers

J

[GilesW 41]

Hum. Induction 'hammer' is great. But be warned - it's pretty easy to fall foul of noise regs if you're doing track days.

[GilesW 41]

Do you know who made the manifold?

It seems very long.

Anyone commented (Sandy etc) on how it's length might effect you 'mildly tuned' engine?

 

Looks quite a nice bit of kit though.

[kyepan 291]

I'll get back to bonnet pins later, but the main thing with this setup is - getting cold air in.

 

Now the standard radiator is too high - unless you want a warm air feed directly into your bodies as it comes of the radiator, you need a clear path into the rad free of obstruction. Alternatives are Lower the radiator, or get a shorter fatter aluminium radiator and new fan.

 

I went direct to RadTec for mine, and sourced the fan elsewhere. It was pricy. very pricy. But it's supposed to be a direct fit, no problem. the standard rad temp sensor screws in, and it simply splices into the fan loom.

 

As it turns out when Dad and I went to trial fit it, with the existing inlet on, the upper tabs were not bent up at the correct length to keep the rad vertical, it was laid back at the top. Luckily they were alu tabs, so a bit of fitting with some mole grips and we had a rad, that still didn't fit with the standard MI inlet manifold. Hopefully there would be no such issues with the radiator when the bodies go on. Standard rad back on for the time being methinks..

 

Additionally, sandy suggested some kind of sheet on top of the rad that guides air under the entrance to the bodies to guard against stationary heat soak and generally just guides the hot stuff under the trumpets and out of the way. We'll get to this later too.

 

Cheers

 

J

[kyepan 291]

Hum. Induction 'hammer' is great. But be warned - it's pretty easy to fall foul of noise regs if you're doing track days.

I don't, so i guess that's fine, but thanks for the heads up.

 

Do you know who made the manifold?

colin satchel and sandy brown developed this setup together.

 

what effect the longer length has - A greater spread of torque across the rev range.

Imagine your playing a recorder like back in school, to play a low note more holes in the recorder must be covered. it's the same with engines. Longer inlet means peaks of pulse tuned torque at lower RPM, then again at double that RPM, where the octave is. Shorter inlets may only peak once at 5-6k RPM.

Edited June 1, 2012 by kyepan

[Sandy 189]

Good update

 

The bodies were originally used on a lad that Colin know's engine by Pug1off and mapped by Steve Miles as I understand. Closer to 200bhp than 300bhp I was told on both ours and Jenveys, despite solid lifters, 2.1 etc. This set up was designed to make the best of medium spec hydraulic lifter limited engines, ie maximise mid range, make it very driveable and well mannered on the road.

[Simes 248 2 Cars]

 

Additionally, sandy suggested some kind of sheet on top of the rad that guides air under the entrance to the bodies to guard against stationary heat soak and generally just guides the hot stuff under the trumpets and out of the way. We'll get to this later too.

 

 

Like this?

 

 

Great thread btw.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Good stuff Justin you sneaky mofo!

 

It's interesting, and somehow reassuring to see someone else approach and overcome the same issues I and probably many others had in similar ways. If you remember, my 'heat deflector and air guide' solution was the tailgate inner trim panel, which is attached to the top of my very lowered rad.

 

The twin injector set up is a definite win, but I'm not sure if you've selected which ones to use; I used GM Omega V6 2.5 (dark blues) as inners, and (in the bike body rail) 106/Saxo VTS Weber Picos.

 

Finally I think most 'budget' builds are a compromise somewhere, and this encourages innovation and out-of-the-box thinking which produces unique engines/cars with very different characters. This is one reason I didn't choose the off-the-shelf Jenvey approach, as there would be many cars like mine, but I wanted to be different (read: awkward).

[kyepan 291]

A quick update as promised.

 

Bonnet pins would definitely be needed because of the amount of material we are going to have to remove form the slam panel

 

As it's a road car the bonnet would need to be lockable, so it would seem aero catch secure's were the right option

They come with easy cut templates and seem a good product

 

Here is the catch, they should be mounted teardrop style tip forwards, but in reality we looked at a few other installationa and decided to go side on.

 

Here are both the stick on templates, spot the deliberate mistake, we spotted before cuting the bonnet

 

 

Initial pilot hole then used the ossolating saw (totally genius invention) to cut the straight lines.

 

 

Pa using the hole saw to punch through the radiuses, which we tidied up with the dremmel.

 

nearly finished hole, just using the dremel to nick off the slivers

 

Underside didn't give enough clearance to do up the nuts, but you cans see the initial amount of material removed.

 

Holed for the mounting bolts

 

Cut away a bit more material to finally secure everything

 

Getting the initial positioning was the hard part, and required some head scratching and lots of measuring.

 

 

Cheers

 

J

[welshpug 1,626]

yay, someone fitted them properly for a change (single operation to open the bonnet when mounted that way, if you're ambidextrous and they are not locked that is!)

 

when will it be mapped?

[kyepan 291]

So lets talk about braided hoses, they look great don't they, under a bonnet on itbs there's nothing flasher than some braided hoses everywhere. Braided fuel, braided vacuum, braided breathers, braided everything.

 

It's fair to say now i'm balls deep I have a massive hard on for braided hoses. However the reality is as follows.

 

 

I have two different fuel rails, with three different bore sizes, some flared, others not, then another fitting into the fuel filter.

The hoses are braided from Goodridge, they are imperial sizes, and they do not line up with the fuel rails - at all. The hoses do not have any give because they are braided!!, the braids cannot be peeled back easily, as they are bonded into the hose.

 

The fittings only work with certain types of hose, the proper hose ends do not fit the rails and the jubilee style hose ends are the only alternative.

 

If there was one real waste of time it was trying to fit this braided hose, total waste of time / money and expense, hands covered in cuts and pin pricks. the Jubilee hose ends are of the lowest quality, and failed 5/7 times because they jumped and mashed themselves up (probably because they were being squeezed too much on lower diameter pipe or not able to fit over larger diameters.

 

The T Peice however that we use on the high pressure side was excellent. Once we reverted to rubber hose, it's fittings worked well, were simple and adjustable to angle of dangle.

 

I wanted to have an engine bay full of braid, silly me.

[kyepan 291]

when will it be mapped?

Soon

[welshpug 1,626]

bit late now but here's a very helpful thread for using braided fuel hoses on the original fuel rails:

 

http://forum.205gtid...howtopic=138287

 

something similar can be done if using other ones, best bet is to speak to a seller of said items and fittings.

 

you do not want to use jubilee clips on proper braided hoses, they are, as you found, crap you need to use the proper screwed olive fittings and adapters.

 

Linky to Alex's ebay shop (Powers on here) www.torques.co.uk

Edited June 6, 2012 by welshpug

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Thats the best option, Even trade price for my car was around £300.00, just for the Fuel lines

[petert 554]

I've been braided hoses and fittings from Summit. Prices are approx half that of local, even including shipping. Even though I have the correct tool to cut the hoses, I find a thin cut off wheel in the grinder works best.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Justin:

 

What are you doing for a FPR? Do either of the ITB rails have an embedded 3bar FPR? (FYI - I routed my staged injectors as fuel supply into outer rail, then from outer to inner, then inner rail output was the return line to tank, with the inner rail housing the FPR).

 

Don't forget to cut a hole in the filter backplate for your IAT sensor.

[kyepan 291]

My setup uses a single FPR, single low pressure return, Split high pressure feed.

 

Running two regs would mean that the lower rated one always engaged first, effectively meaning a single FPR unless they were both identical, which they are not.

 

I'll put up some more info about the fuel system soon.

 

Air temp sensor mounted near the filter.

Edited June 7, 2012 by kyepan

[Matts205gti-6 3]

Good update

 

The bodies were originally used on a lad that Colin know's engine by Pug1off and mapped by Steve Miles as I understand. Closer to 200bhp than 300bhp I was told on both ours and Jenveys, despite solid lifters, 2.1 etc. This set up was designed to make the best of medium spec hydraulic lifter limited engines, ie maximise mid range, make it very driveable and well mannered on the road.

 

They were on the old engine which was 238bhp which did a 13.3 quarter mile, it now has the 302bhp engine in it, so they are to totally different engines

[kyepan 291]

The loom arrives.

The build now hinged on Sandy's loom, everything else was in place. Sandy was under unreasonable pressure from about ten other customers including me to deliver various things. Quite apart from all the Combe series race engines / hill climb engines that all had to be ready for the beginning of the season.

 

Once the loom arrived it was clearly worth the wait, Fully shrink wrapped, protected with corrugation where it might encounter vibrations, only high quality connectors used, fully labelled, Disconnect-able injector looms, fully plug and play right up to the two multi plugs that I gave pin outs to Sandy for.

I should have taken photos! of it!

 

Instead i took a photo of the box he sent it in, with the nice little smiley, which was pretty much a mirror of my face upon opening it.

 

 

Removing the old loom

Mine came in the drivers side grommet, but the new version would be coming in thorough the passenger side, no more lifting the loom out of the way to do anything cam-belt related.

 

The loom had been in the car for probably, 8 years, and as i removed it i realised why gauges bounced, the alternator light glowed and other things never told the truth. It was covered in oil, not on the outside, but underneath the electrical tape covering. Covered from the engine all the way back to where it goes over the cam cover. Found some of the original loom conversion splices

 

 

And where something fuel and and something taco related wired into the light loom.

The reason for knowing about all the oil was i had to trace this

 

back to find out it was wired into this

 

Thus understanding it was the taco signal

 

Removing

 

Removed!

 

 

Plugging in the new loom itself took about ten minutes once we had "modified" the bulk head hole slightly to accept the coil plug, working around my two previous bodges took a bit longer.

 

When i had fuel pump related issues i hard wired the fuel pump.. which didn't fix the dying pump, only a pump fixed it.

when i had starter motor issues i hard wired the starter.. which fixed the issue

We had to unwire both these bodges.

 

 

Only issue is that my gsxr bodies were the earlier type and as such the injector connectors did not fit. Upon fitting the bodies we found out that the connectors on the bike body injectors were different to the loom, luckily sandy made the loom with each injection loom as a separate sub loom, so we could modify or replace this with connectors that fit the bodies. All i needed was the right connectors, but that wouldn't worry me on the way down to mapping but something else to sort by the mapping date.

 

I subsequently found out that the connectors i needed were nippon denso top slot. as seen here

 

Then with the rad fitted, which did fit by the way

 

And everything back in ready to turn the key.

 

Plus a little bit of work with the angle grinder on the slam panel - stand by forum health and safety police!!

 

Unfortunately we didn't have a suitable base map yet to start it with...

 

Again massive thanks to Ant and paul who both turned up on sunday and helped pretty much all day with only a thank you as thankyou. Second thanks go to mr cheesegrater who agreed to do some "welding" on my slam panel, the results of which i will share soon.

Edited June 22, 2012 by kyepan