Stereo And Speaker/cabling Upgrade Options

[chrisj21 2]

With the interior coming out of the 205 in the next couple of weeks i thought it would be an ideal time to upgrade the standard stereo system.

 

I currently have all the original speakers, wiring and stereo installed of which the rear speakers and passenger door speaker don't work.

 

So i plan to remove it all and start again. Not really into the ICE areas so can anyone recommend a decent headunit, wiring and speakers to go for?

Had a browse down halfrauds at the weekend but to be honest stereos baffle me.

 

No particular budget.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Chris

Edited March 20, 2009 by chrisj21

[Tesstuff 222]

Chris , have a listen to my set up, it would be a very good benchmark for you and total proof you don't have to spend a lot to get an excellent sound.

 

I need to pop over to see Nuneaton Tony, could perhaps coincide the two

 

And is the interior coming out to make it light enough to keep up with the Gentry GTXi 24v then ?

[large 33]

First thing I would do is set a budget!

Do you want a sub? Amps? how far do you want to go? front speakers £2000? (you can get them for that and they are good).

 

I would be looking at.

Headunit=£150-200

amp=£200-250

Front speakers=£200

back speakers=£100-150

cable=£100.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

I agree with Huw (Large) that you ought to make some sort of plan & budget.

 

Listening to someone else's system is also a good start, because what sounds great to someone else may sound good to you. Conversely what they have might not be what you're looking for.

 

First off you need to plan ahead when buying the head unit. I would strongly advise an MP3/WMA compatible headunit or one that let's you plug in an iPod or similar. This means more time concentrating on driving rather than changing disks. Forget multiplayers altogether as the type of headunit I'm recommending plays disks with nearly 200 tracks on, USB drives with 1,000+ tracks or megaGB iPods with all of your music. This is definitely the way to go.

 

Still on the head unit, more RCA outputs = future compatibility. Try and get 3 x pre-outs (front/rear/sub) so later you can do whatever you want. You can certainly make a good system with a head unit with no pre-outs (i..e. just an internal amp), but this doesn't mean you can develop the system later. Besides a 3 pre-out, MP3 headunit these days comes for around £100 if you're clever and buy ex-display, even from Halfrauds.

 

And still on the head unit, all of the lights and features are no good if it's not easy to use; so I'd fiddle with it in the shop and see if it suits you and how easy it is to access. For example, a rotary volume knob is ace, and a steering wheel remote (preferably with a mute button) is a God send.

 

In short I'd budget £150 for a really decent head unit, and build on from that.

 

6x9 type speakers do deliver a decent amount of thump (bass), but if you want proper (entertaining) bass you'll need a sub+amp combo. Even these can be had for £100 as a package. A wiring kit will add another £20. But you'll get what you pay for with the amp+sub, so again I'd look for ex-display etc.

 

But after the head unit, the most important thing is the front speakers. Hell, that's where you sit; and the last time I checked one doesn't go to a concert and turn their back to the band. Rear speakers ain't really that important. £100-£150 buys a cracking set (again - look in the bargain cabinet)

 

Finally on safety. As you've admitted you know very little, have someone who knows their stuff install it with you. This is particularly important if you choose to run an amplifier, which will be powering the front (perhaps rear as well) speakers and certainly any sub. This requires decent guage of cabling for the current requirements of the amp and a main system fuse not more than 18" away from the battery.

 

With the carpets up: lay the speaker wires & pre-out (RCA) cables down one side of the car, and remote turn on lead (switches the amp on when the head unit's turned on) and power cable down the other. This reduces the possibility of noise/interference being induced in the system, eg alternator whine.

 

Mount things properly and securely, especially the speakers, as this will make it sound much better. The biggest difference in any system with regards to volume and sound quality is standard of installation. A pack of Dynamat (or similar) too will help subdue any rattles, and is easy to fit.

 

So:

Plan purchases - set a goal (listen to other systems) - set a budget - get some help - do it right - enjoy the reward

 

Rich

Edited March 21, 2009 by DrSarty

[platty 1]

Well Chris, as said, the head unit is the heart of the system, so starting there I'd be tempted with an Alpine IDAX100(£200). It has 4x50w onboard amplification, 3 pre-outs, CD changer control(you could add a boot changer if you wish), and Full iPod control. It is MP3/Radio only though, until you add a boot changer for CD's.

 

For the front speakers I'd go for a set of JL Audio VR525 - CXI Coaxial speakers (£130). Excellent little units, that sound very clean without breaking the bank.

 

For the rear I'd definately go for a pair of Morel Pulse 6x9's(£150). These are fantastic, will happily handle what the head unit can throw at them, but will also handle an amplifier if you choose to go that way in the future.

 

An MDF parcel shelf (stealth shelf) is a must for the 6x9's. They need something solid to work from. Budget £70 for a manufactured one, or £30 if your feeling handy with a jigsaw/carpet glue.

 

Then budget around £30 for speaker cable. You could drastically cut the bill if your willing to entertain second hand goods.

[chrisj21 2]

Tesstuff Posted Yesterday, 10:59 PM

Chris , have a listen to my set up, it would be a very good benchmark for you and total proof you don't have to spend a lot to get an excellent sound.

 

I need to pop over to see Nuneaton Tony, could perhaps coincide the two

 

And is the interior coming out to make it light enough to keep up with the Gentry GTXi 24v then ?

 

That would be great if you wouldn't mind Daz.

 

I've sent a few pm's to Tony regarding some goodwoods but had no reply, is he still doing them do you know?

 

No interior is coming out to get rid of the wet soundproofing/underlay and replace with new.

 

Large, Drsarty and Platty thanks for the advice,

 

As you say making a budget will be the best place to start so ......

 

Headunit: Ipod/mp3 compatable would be great advantage and as you say Rich steering wheel control would also be very useful due to the awkward position of the stereo so i think £200.

 

Front speakers: I think you hit the nail on the head there Rich, you do not indeed go to a concert and stand with your back to the band so these im putting as the most important therefor i'll spend abit more on these than the rears. £200.

 

I dont think i'll go with an amp at the minute but i'll get a headunit thats compatable so i can upgrade at a later date if needs be.

 

Rear speakers: I'll budget around £100 for these.

 

Cabling: I suppose this is really important to get the full potential of the speakers and any future upgrades i may do so i'll budget around £50 max for this.

 

So a total budget of £600.00 with a £50 buffer for any connecters or bits i may need.

 

So with my budget set can anyone recommend me some brands/models to have a look at.

 

Thanks again for the generous replys.

 

Chris

[EdCherry 34 1 Cars]

My personal preference for headunit is alpine. I've installed JVC, Panasonic and Alpine, and Alpine comes out top everytime! I myself have an Alpine, I plug my iPod in and scroll through my music, it charges my ipod so I just leave it in there till I need to update it.

 

I myself just getting rid of my crappy little setup in the boot to make way for something a bit better and more permanent.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Mark (Platty)'s made some good recommendations there.

 

I seriously personally wouldn't bother spending any more than £40 on the 'rear fill' 6 x 9 speakers. I mean that from experience. Most autofactors will sell brand new Kenwood, Pioneer or similar speakers at this price which are more than adequate. Brands like JL Audio etc will be in bargain buckets and ex-display windows for this, normally costing twice that. This frees up money for a proper rear shelf which is an excellent recommendation.

 

And you clearly have a PC or Mac. So I simply wouldn't bother with any kind of boot changer just to get CD compatibility; just rip everything to MP3 or bang your iPod in. Boot changers are history and in your case they'll just eat up money and add to installation complexity. I've never heard of a player not being able to read CD audio! (Sorry Mark).

 

So with your current plan, just run the new speaker wires for the rears down one side. Your rear speakers will benefit from decent thickness speaker cable.

 

I'd still be tempted though, whilst you have all of the carpets and underlay out to bang in a £20 amp wiring kit and get it done. You can thread the powerlead through the bulkhead (there's a nice grommet behind the glovebox) and take it to the batt pos via a fuse holder (leaving the fuse out for now) or just coil it ready for later. To me that's economic use of your time, meaning any future upgrades go in in a jiffy.

 

There's enough room/clearance between door speaker location and dash to do what I did, which is make up an MDF (trimmed) baffle for the speakers. Mine's 12mm MDF, but you could use 15mm, and with speakers they seriously need a firm mounting to play from and the rear wave isolated from the front to create some pretty amazingly clear sounds and punchy mid-bass. Head units these days whack out around 50W+ (some even RMS watts), which is pretty meaty, and you should be able to achieve some excellent result, IF you install it well

 

Make sure you get your speakers wired 'in-phase' too, which means plus output on amp/headunit goes to plus input on speaker.

 

EDIT:

Just thought I'd mention my system and costs.

Headunit - 8 years old - Pioneer DEH-M9400RDS (these can be bought for about £200 now - digital time alignment / full parametric EQ / 4v pre-out x 3 / built-in adjustable electronic crossovers & a host of EQ & DSP settings - as said: it starts with the head unit). This is the daddy of Pioneer's old skool stuff. Was £750

Sub/amp combo - JL Audio JL15W0 (15" - but may change to 2 x 10") £90 / Kenwood KAC-108PT 2 channel bass amp £50 2nd hand

Front stage - Sony XL55 (or similar) 5.25" components (i.e. separate tweeters) £90 ex-display

Rear fill - Sony IIRC 6x9" £10 from SorrentoPete (probably £120+ new)

4ch amp - (More old school) Phillips DAP600 (reboxed Alpine basically) 4 x 80RMS £20 from mate.

 

Despite it playing Peter Gabriel for poor old GLP, I think he'll vouch for how pretty mind-blowing this hi-fi system is. In fact it got RTA'd (real time analyzed) in Macclesfield's car audio specialist shop, and it seems the 205 is a very good environment for good sound. We only tweaked 2.5khz up 2dB to get a competition standard EQ/RTA response. Purely attention to detail in installation. No fancy signal altering kit at all, as the head unit was playing flat.

Edited March 21, 2009 by DrSarty

[chrisj21 2]

Well Chris, as said, the head unit is the heart of the system, so starting there I'd be tempted with an Alpine IDAX100(£200). It has 4x50w onboard amplification, 3 pre-outs, CD changer control(you could add a boot changer if you wish), and Full iPod control. It is MP3/Radio only though, until you add a boot changer for CD's.

 

Looks like a very good unit with a small display screen which i like. But i cant seem to find anyone who sells them apart from the states. Could you point me in the right direction please.

 

I'd still be tempted though, whilst you have all of the carpets and underlay out to bang in a £20 amp wiring kit and get it done. You can thread the powerlead through the bulkhead (there's a nice grommet behind the glovebox) and take it to the batt pos via a fuse holder (leaving the fuse out for now) or just coil it ready for later. To me that's economic use of your time, meaning any future upgrades go in in a jiffy

 

Excellent point and one i wouild have most definatly overlooked.

 

There's enough room/clearance between door speaker location and dash to do what I did, which is make up an MDF (trimmed) baffle for the speakers. Mine's 12mm MDF, but you could use 15mm

 

Could explain this point a little more please Rich im slightly lost here. I assume you mean where the speaker is mounted to the door, insert a packer type piece between speaker and door? If so will there still be enough clearence for the speaker cover?

 

So i'll adjust my rear speaker budget to £50 which should leave me enough to buy a stealth shelf (my current shelf is broken anyway) and then i'll need to budget for some 6x9's which fit the stealth shelf, correct?

 

Out of interest what size are the front and rear speakers?

 

So to re-cap:

 

Headunit: The alpine unit mentioned above looks good (alpine IDAX100) and is recommended £200

 

Front speakers: No make/model decided yet £200

 

Rear side speakers: Again no make/model yet but budget speakers £50 max

 

Stealth shelf: £70-80?

 

Shelf speaker (6x9's): No make/model decided yet £150 max

 

Cable/amp cableing: £60 max

 

So thats coming in at £730, ideally i'd like to spend no more than £700 so i'll be shopping around the 'bargain buckets' for some better deals.

 

Thanks for the advice again

 

Chris

[chrisj21 2]

EDIT:

Just thought I'd mention my system and costs.

Headunit - 8 years old - Pioneer DEH-M9400RDS (these can be bought for about £200 now - digital time alignment / full parametric EQ / 4v pre-out x 3 / built-in adjustable electronic crossovers & a host of EQ & DSP settings - as said: it starts with the head unit). This is the daddy of Pioneer's old skool stuff. Was £750

Sub/amp combo - JL Audio JL15W0 (15" - but may change to 2 x 10") £90 / Kenwood KAC-108PT 2 channel bass amp £50 2nd hand

Front stage - Sony XL55 (or similar) 5.25" components (i.e. separate tweeters) £90 ex-display

Rear fill - Sony IIRC 6x9" £10 from SorrentoPete (probably £120+ new)

4ch amp - (More old school) Phillips DAP600 (reboxed Alpine basically) 4 x 80RMS £20 from mate.

 

It seems you picked up some good bargains there Rich with the 6x9's and 2 channel base amp with good results too. (not that im an expert)

 

Old skool headunits sound interesting too, would be more in keeping with the age of car. Although i'd probably find it difficult to pick up a good second hand one now?

 

Also just found this headunit, seems to a fair bit and also has the front usb port

 

Kenwood bt6544u

 

Thoughts?

 

Chris

Edited March 21, 2009 by chrisj21

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Could explain this point a little more please Rich im slightly lost here. I assume you mean where the speaker is mounted to the door, insert a packer type piece between speaker and door? If so will there still be enough clearence for the speaker cover? ** YES. Use the OE grille to make an MDF shape into which you mount the speaker, once you've sprayed it black and trimmed it in cloth or vinyl. Screw the baffle firmly to the door (into the metal) then the speaker screws into the baffle. Measure it out and you'll see there's room for the MDF baffle and the new speaker's grille on top.

 

So i'll adjust my rear speaker budget to £50 which should leave me enough to buy a stealth shelf (my current shelf is broken anyway) and then i'll need to budget for some 6x9's which fit the stealth shelf, correct? **NO & YES. You only need the shelf & the 6x9s.

 

Out of interest what size are the front and rear speakers? **Fronts OE are 5.25", but with the baffle you can go up to 6.5". Forget rears (i.e. the OE positions - only have the 6x9s in the shelf

 

Hope that helps.

Edited March 21, 2009 by DrSarty

[chrisj21 2]

Ok im with you now Rich, thanks for that.

 

Ok so cross out the rear side speakers which puts the rough total at under £700 which is ideal

 

Cheers Rich

 

Chris

[chrisj21 2]

Also just found a stealth shelf for just under £60.00, I just need to cut the holes once i get the speakers.

 

Stealth shelf

 

Chris

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

That Kenwood HU looks fine. It even has built in crossovers, which means you can tell it to not send low bass (i.e. 60 or 80hz and below) to the speakers that can't play them, i.e. anything but the sub(s). This is what I do. This facility may only be available though when using the pre-outs, i.e. running a separate amplifier.

 

Perhaps you could bargain with these people or play someone off against them and get the steering remote thrown in? He who dares wins Rodney.

[Tesstuff 222]

That would be great if you wouldn't mind Daz.

 

I've sent a few pm's to Tony regarding some goodwoods but had no reply, is he still doing them do you know?

 

No interior is coming out to get rid of the wet soundproofing/underlay and replace with new.

 

Chris

 

Are you in tomorrow for an hour? I have to drop off a completed computer repair around lunchtime so i am free in the afternoon and early evening, let me know today if you can

[platty 1]

Good advice in this thread!

 

I was going to mention a MDF baffle for the front speakers.

 

Speakers work much better when they are mounted properly.

[jeremy 68]

In my last 205 and my current one I had almost identicle set ups. I will try and give you an idea of cost

 

Alpine 7939 s/hand like new bought 12 yrs ago £250 then Kenwood KDC8090R bought s/hand £100 about 4/5 years ago and lastly JVC KD-G821 new of Car Audio Direct £140. The Alpine had the best sound quality, the Kenwood and JVC about equal second however have more functions than the Alpine ever did.

MRP F240 £120 new 4X80 watts max

MRP M350 £120 new 1X350 watts max into 2 Ohms

JBL 130 mm front and rear 150W max pwr coaxial 2 ways £35/pair new then Alpine £35/pair new with similar spec to the JBLs

Subs 2X10' Vibes PT100 iirc inc sub box £72 s/hand then 2XJBL GT3 £80 inc sub box

Each amp wiring kit from Ebay £12

Speaker wire bought from Richer Sounds say £15/car

cable connectors etc £5

 

 

 

So excluding the h/u the cost of my installs were about £450 per car, both had great sound and kicked nicely. I'm not saying they were to audio file quality however they kept me happy for over four years.

Edited March 21, 2009 by jeremy

[omega 82]

anybody got a pic of this speaker baffle fitted? thanks

[johnnyboy666 195 1 Cars]

am i missing something here? people seem to be buying expensive kit, then listening to mp3s through it all?! surely that would sound not too different to cheap setup and CD's??

[platty 1]

Indeed.......mp3's compressed formats are not as 'clean' as CD's.

[jeremy 68]

Regarding compressed music in mp3 format, channel 5s The Gadget Show compared an Ipod to a CD to Vynal, and both presenters said the Ipod came out tops, even though they secretly wanted vynal to win. All three were played through the exact same set up.

[chrisj21 2]

johnnyboy666 Posted Today, 07:56 PM

am i missing something here? people seem to be buying expensive kit, then listening to mp3s through it all?! surely that would sound not too different to cheap setup and CD's??

 

I've decided to go with the kenwood headunit as mentioned on the first page now which is cd/ipod/mp3 compatible.

 

All the recent music i've purchased has been via itunes so is all mp3's but the cd will be handy for my older stuff.

 

Casn anyone tell me what gauge wire to use? there seem to a few options including 11,8,4 with 4 gauge being more expensive.

 

Chris

[large 33]

For what? I didn't think you wanted an amp.

[chrisj21 2]

Speakers mainly but as Rich suggested im putting amp wires in while i have the interior and carpet out.

 

Chris

[Anthony 1,000]

am i missing something here? people seem to be buying expensive kit, then listening to mp3s through it all?! surely that would sound not too different to cheap setup and CD's??

It's all relative, isn't it? I'm not convinced that with the poor acoustics and noisy environment of a 205 that you'd be able to tell the difference between a decent MP3 (not your usual 64kps rubbish) and a CD, thanks to the whole installation being significantly compromised compared to a decent seperates hifi system in your lounge.