My Gti6 Conversion Queries Thread

[jtek 0]

Well here's the plan. With the cage finished and my 205 off the road I have removed the engine and gearbox. Over the next few months, I will be tracking down a decent shape standard GTI6/Xsara VTS unit, to run with either a 1600 or 1900 box with a LSD of some form. I have searched the forum a few times with regards to the various implications, and so far I know of the following issues:-

-The GTI6 exhaust manifold needs re-angling to fit properly. A cut and weld job I assume?

-An Escort RS2000 top mount will keep the engine sitting straight?

-The master cylinder can be rather close to the cam cover

-The thermostat housing is angled differently

-Rear coolant hoses from the GTI6 are a more suited fit then the 8v items

-Unlocked ECU issues etc.

- A different speedo sender is required

-Oil pressure gauge is not fitted as standard to GTI6 engines?

 

And now for my initial queries-

-Ideal Clutch and Flywheel setup?

-Wiring? my loom is all labelled up, but realistically how much of a nightmare should a novice with auto wiring expect?

-Oil cooler? With it being mainly a track car, are GTI6's known for heating their oil a lot on track?

-Bits (hoses and stuff) to keep from the 1600 setup

 

If there are any other glaringly obvious things I have missed then I would be very grateful to know, I have never worked with a GTI6 before, so I expect there will be a lot of questions over the next few months. If anybody has any bits for this conversion that will be of use to me then give me a shout, wanted threads will be going up aswell. Also if there is anyone in the Northampton area with some expertise on this then it would be great to meet you!

 

Thats all I can think of at the mo

 

Many thanks

 

Jonathan

[craig f90 0]

Clutch and flywheel should come from your gti-6 donor. 1.9 gearbox maybe better suited to that engine. I beleve Stew from BBM is making a hose specific kit. But im sure someone drew a hose route diagram in this forum, as i used ideas from it with my turbo conversion. I wouldnt throw any hose away from the 1.6 or -6 just yet. Grim badger has a brown multi plug diagram post on the site, that helped me with some of the wiring joining. Spiky does an awesome tahco converter in the group buys section.

I belive some have ditched the oil/water heat exchanger for a remote cooler if they are track cars.

If i remember correctly (never done/owned a 205-6) the reason for the escort mount was to stop the cam cover hitting the master cylinder.

 

Sorry i cant help any further at the moment.

[pugpete1108 62 1 Cars]

Well here's the plan. With the cage finished and my 205 off the road I have removed the engine and gearbox. Over the next few months, I will be tracking down a decent shape standard GTI6/Xsara VTS unit, to run with either a 1600 or 1900 box with a LSD of some form. I have searched the forum a few times with regards to the various implications, and so far I know of the following issues:-

-The GTI6 exhaust manifold needs re-angling to fit properly. A cut and weld job I assume?

-An Escort RS2000 top mount will keep the engine sitting straight?

-The master cylinder can be rather close to the cam cover

-The thermostat housing is angled differently

-Rear coolant hoses from the GTI6 are a more suited fit then the 8v items

-Unlocked ECU issues etc.

- A different speedo sender is required

-Oil pressure gauge is not fitted as standard to GTI6 engines?

 

And now for my initial queries-

-Ideal Clutch and Flywheel setup?

-Wiring? my loom is all labelled up, but realistically how much of a nightmare should a novice with auto wiring expect?

-Oil cooler? With it being mainly a track car, are GTI6's known for heating their oil a lot on track?

-Bits (hoses and stuff) to keep from the 1600 setup

 

If there are any other glaringly obvious things I have missed then I would be very grateful to know, I have never worked with a GTI6 before, so I expect there will be a lot of questions over the next few months. If anybody has any bits for this conversion that will be of use to me then give me a shout, wanted threads will be going up aswell. Also if there is anyone in the Northampton area with some expertise on this then it would be great to meet you!

 

Thats all I can think of at the mo

 

Many thanks

 

Jonathan

 

i have used the std gti6 flywhhel and then an mi16 clutch to keep the 1600/1900 gbox(pull release clutch on gti6/vts,push release on std gti setup iirc)

i have tilted the brake master cylinder for clearance on the cam cover and tilted the engine 8degs further back for manifold clearance(using a modded lower gti lower mount with bbm solid rubbers all round) i have also folded the seam in the exhaust tunnel for extra clearance.

not got round to the speedo sender yet and with regards to the wiring etc i have made a complete loom up from scratch due to the fact i am running megasquirt managment

hope this helps

[Peetypug 5]

1.9 mi16v clutch is needed, the 2ltr one is the same as the gti6 clutch

There are different ways to do the cooling. Just do a search

Angle the master cylinder with washers

Buy the uprated engine mounts not the rs2000 one. If you use that then you'll need to lower the gearbox side as well

You can re-angle the exhaust just tilt it with a slightly longer lower fork.

The wiring isnt to hard as long as you know what wire is what.

[jtek 0]

Cool will search for diagrams of wires and cooling stuff. By the sounds of things there are two different ways of going about positioning the engine, either further tilting it or re-angling the exhaust and master cylinder. Has anybody had any problems with either method? While re-angling the engine could have it's issues, fiddling around with the master cylinder doesn't seem ideal either :S

[taylorspug 7]

Put the engine in on the standard mounts, it was meant to be angled that way, and if you lower the engine and run a low ride height, you will start to knock shafts and sumps out. At the end of the day its not meant to be ideal, the ideal solution (fitment-wise) is to stick with an 8v, as that was meant to go in the car originally! Instead its just important to engineer the car properly so it will work reliably, or you will be forever taking it apart when things break.

 

As for coolant hoses do a bit more of a search, im personally running all the standard 8v hoses on mine apart from the top hose, no T-pieces or any of that.

[BuD 0]

-Oil cooler? With it being mainly a track car, are GTI6's known for heating their oil a lot on track?

 

GTi6's run really warm in 306's and 205's on track. I know the water to oil cooler is on at the limit with a standard engine.

 

 

As for coolant hoses do a bit more of a search, im personally running all the standard 8v hoses on mine apart from the top hose, no T-pieces or any of that.

 

Am surprised to hear this as I have found I had to extend the lower heater hose by 80mm for it to reach, I also use a modified water distribution block and a standard header tank to dist block hose but this is only possible (on mine) due to 100mm alloy extension tig'd into the alloy gti6 dist block at the critical angle to clear everything.

 

All goes to show how much stuff seemd to vary with different installs

Edited September 24, 2008 by BuD

[taylorspug 7]

GTi6's run really warm in 306's and 205's on track. I know the water to oil cooler is on at the limit with a standard engine.

 

 

 

 

Am surprised to hear this as I have found I had to extend the lower heater hose by 80mm for it to reach, I also use a modified water distribution block and a standard header tank to dist block hose but this is only possible (on mine) due to 100mm alloy extension tig'd into the alloy gti6 dist block at the critical angle to clear everything.

 

All goes to show how much stuff seemd to vary with different installs

 

Im using an S16 water distribution block which has all the outlets already on it, then a phase 2 lower heater hose cut to the right length to get around the manifold and onto the back of the stat housing. But ive just done another car where i had to put a small extension into the header tank hose to get it to reach, so yes they are all different.

 

Also agree with you about how hot GTI6s run, its a good deal hotter than an MI, and really puts a strain on both the water and oil cooling systems. Also keeping it cool in traffic is a pain too, especially when you only have one fan!

[jtek 0]

Evening all, progress has been steady lately, just been tidying up bits and bobs mainly, before the financially ruinous shopping list is sorted. I hit a small snag today however when trying to get the original engine loom out of the car. The dash is still in the car, but by the looks of the positioning of the wiring to the ECU plug, I am going to have to take the dash out. Is this the case? Having not looked at any wiring diagrams just yet, is it even necessary to have both looms laid out, free of the car? I was just assuming it would be easier.

Cheers!

[TurboSam 5]

I cut it out - far easier then removing dash. You only need to keep the brown multiplugs from under the dash, and a few inches of wiring from that really

[jtek 0]

Ah brill, I will be sure to look at the wiring threads before I go any further, so I know what I can get away with butchering

Another thing that popped into my head today, I was going to ditch the standard exhaust for a group N jobby, but mine seems in decent nick, which just begs the question, is the standard exhaust system too restrictive for a GTI-6 engine? I am guessing without the CAT probably not, but if anyone has experience of different systems on 6' engines, it would be great to hear!

Cheers

[Alastairh 47]

As Sam says. On the s*itronic loom, just cut the ecu plug off and taccy relay plug off. This makes life easier to pull the loom through, and you don't need the connectors.

 

There are 2 cable ties holding the loom in, one each side of the steering colum up at the back, but it can be done with the dash still in. Dropping the colum does help from memory, but removing the dials doesn't.

 

I would stay with the Standard 205 exhaust. Mainly the original group n's rot quicker than a Ford Ka, and they are actually thinner in diameter than the STD exhaust. But yeah it should be fine

 

Al

[Fox 3]

I know its an old thread now, but usefull!

 

Just getting back to exhausts, the manifold needs cutting and welding to position it tighter to the block? Correct?

 

Will this mate with my standard 205 downpipe and system?

[Alastairh 47]

I know its an old thread now, but usefull!

 

Just getting back to exhausts, the manifold needs cutting and welding to position it tighter to the block? Correct?

 

Will this mate with my standard 205 downpipe and system?

 

Correct, the manifold will need re angling similar concept as to Mi16's.

 

205 down pipe won't just fit on. It needs cutting back, as the 6 manifold is fairly long. Just check how wide your flange is, they vary in size from company to company.

 

Al

Edited December 9, 2008 by Alastairh

[Fox 3]

Correct, the manifold will need re angling similar concept as to Mi16's.

 

205 down pipe won't just fit on. It needs cutting back, as the 6 manifold is fairly long. Just check how wide your flange is, they vary in size from company to company.

 

Al

 

Cheers Al, I dont suppose you have a photo showing a cut 6 manifold do you? Or is it a case of cutting-bending and trying on the engine to get it as tight to the block as you can get it?

[M@tt 77]

I didn't have to cut and reweld my exhaust i simply extended the bottom mount slightly to angle the exhaust outlet down the tunnel more.

 

I did have issues with cam cover/master cylinder clearance though but that just meant grinding off a small amount ove the car cover which i'd think is a lot easier than rewelding the exhaust.

 

Obvioulsy theres various differnet ways of doing this conversion and its horses for courses so just pick the method thats best suited for you. I wouldn't say one method is any better than the other as conversions have been done both ways and both work as well as each other

 

HTH

[Fox 3]

Thats good news, I think i'll try that, I'd rather weld the fork than the manifold, my welding isnt that good!

 

Whats the deal with the oil pressure sender, what car do i need to pinch that from?

 

Sorry to hijack this topic, I'll start my own when I get underway!

[jtek 0]

Ah good to see this thread is of use to someone else I have my engine now, going to venture out into the freezing weather and get the loom off and take a look at the manifold. Just to clear it up, am i still likely to have issues with MC and cam cover with the engine mounted as normal with a reworked manifold? And also does anybody have any dimensions that have worked for them with regards to chopping up the manifold? also i haven't looked at the manifold yet but do i need a lambda boss on the downpipe?

Cheers

[jtek 0]

Right, have been out working on the new engine today and here are my next queries!

 

The FEAD bracket seems to be massive overkill as I plan to just run the alternator with a shorter belt. Whats the common approach with this? Angle grinder attack? and then how do people set about tensioning the new setup?

 

WIRING- This is going to get scary, and I shall post in the EMS forum, but do I need both sides of the 205 loom out of the car to setup the wiring? Or am i better off doing the wiring in car? (I currently have the 205 Engine loom out and the xsara VTS loom on my bedroom floor)

 

From now on i will use the abbreviation TFYPITMOS- Thanks for your patience in this moment of stupidity

[jtek 0]

Another one to add in follow up to the FEAD bracket question as I popping to GSF tomorrow, which shorter alternator belt suits the job best?

 

TFYPITMOS

[M@tt 77]

easiest thing is to wrap some string round the pulleys the way the belt would go and then measure it. You might need to add 1cm or so if the string sits deep in the pulley grooves

[jtek 0]

Was thinking along those lines, was just wondering if there was a part that suits the job already, will have a look at the bracket in the morning.

[Fox 3]

I got this info from mechanicalrepairs,

 

"Just ring your local factor and ask folr a 5pk (5 ribbed) 685mm belt, unsure what it from but thats the kid you will need, i run no tensioner atall.

 

Continental also do elastic style belts too although these are a little dear."

 

Thats what I'm going to ask for this morning, will let you know how I get on...

[jtek 0]

Cheers Fox, I may hold out on that one as no tensioner is a bit concerning, don't fancy it starting to slip when it wears, elastic belt may be a winner though!

[Fox 3]

Got the belt fitted, bit of an arse to fit, but it seems to be fine, will let you know how I get on.

 

I'm on with wiring mine up at the moment, what are these plugs for?

 

These two, what is the one thats broken off? Inertia switch? And what does the green one do?

 

 

And this one, in the heatproof stuff?