1.8 16v Engine

[jengis 0]

I have a 1.6 GTi with a fairly tired, standard engine and I am tempted by the idea of a more modern, 16v engine on the cheap.

 

I have done plenty of research into various XU engine conversions but I am put off by the outright cost of MI16 / S16 route (rebuilt ones will cost nearly £1k ???, and I will need additional bits to fit it correctly - short inlet, reangled exhaust etc.)

 

I know the XU7j4 in standard spec will not be a performance leap but will have potential if I modify further in the future (cams?). I am also keen on the additional economy, drivability and like the fact its an alloy block, so shouldn't affect the handling (car is standard springs/height but with Bilstein B6 struts).

 

1) Would anyone be able to sumarise what modifications/parts I will need to make it fit?

 

2) I have a phobia of car electrics and I am scared of not knowing how to splice together the wiring looms - Do I just need to studdy the Haynes manuals properly or will it be more complex?

 

3) Is the cost really going to be cheap enough to warrant being different from the crowd? £300 all in for a low mileage engine and loom about right?

 

I have swapped an engine (in a Rover, ha ha!) a few years back and I'm "OK" with the spanners but I would just like to know a bit more before I take the idea any further! Any info really appreciated (I have used the search too).

 

Cheers

[applemobile 0]

Im pretty sure that the figures of the 1.8 16v are not that good. For all the trouble it will take to convert the engine why not just go down the cheap easy rout and pick up a 1.9 8v? would be my choice.

[jengis 0]

Cheers for the reply.

 

Yeah, agree figures aren't noteworthy. I could get someone to rebuild my engine or a used 1.9 but not convinced the effort and expense of that option would be worth it either. You see, I'd like to think that with with the cat-less exhaust it will be a strong and smooth engine, should sound nicer too!

 

Perhaps I'm just a cheapskate and need to buy a xsara VTS 'donor'

 

What I'd really like to know is what inlet and exhaust manifold I would need and if the only saving is the cost of the engine itself.

[welshpug 1,623]

have a read http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=74214

 

there's a few other threads but I can't remember the titles right now.

[jengis 0]

have a read http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=74214

 

there's a few other threads but I can't remember the titles right now.

 

Cheers, good info.

Search function isn't that user-friendly unless its propper words - ie. 1.8 16v isn't understood

[pip470 61]

I also run this engine for my drag car. I found it didnt make good power and I had r1 bike carbs and a gti6 exhaust manifold. Its typical 16v and doesnt accelerate as quick as the 12.9 gti i had from low down but once the it gets going it seems to make up for it. Its quite lazy though in standard form as the compression ratio is low. This engine is only really put in town cruisers but it definatly has the making of a good engine as sandy has worked a lot with it. How ever My route was to use nitrous, if my engine was in a road car with nitrous it would be an animal. The cost I paid for the engine was £50 then the manifold was £50 the rest of the exhaust was £120 for the custom downpipe from DES developments and the system is a cheap one from ebay but des will match it up to whatever you have. Im not using standard management either as i went for the bike carbs. My advice to you is save for a gti 6. I use this engine as its cheap and makes good power with nitrous, if i break it its cheap enough to replace. Its not so cheap to keep replacing gti 6's. On the other hand buy one of these engines and benefit from the good mpg, good idle, nice and light, but nitrous it so you have the best of both worlds, gti 6 power with a lot better mpg. Heres my thread. Cheers Phill

 

http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?showtopic=75578

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

XU7J4 engine info

 

Graham.

[jengis 0]

Thanks both,

 

Great thread phil, I admire your dedication to extracting every ounce of performance from your 205! However I'm not really looking for big power, so long as its significantly cheaper/easier than going for an Mi

 

To me the only obvious benefit is that it saves a few kilos (20kg?) over an iron block XU. Price-wise, I will still have to source a shortened inlet manifold ?? Custon e/maifold ?? uprated lower mount ?? plus fiddling with getting the right belts and coolant hoses etc.... and of course wiring it up.

 

I would hope to get 120-125 bhp or possibly 130+ if I fit GTi-6 cams. But its the extra torque and drivability I would like most.

I estimate the cost of parts to be:

 

engine, ecu and loom (from a 406/306 breaker) £350

shortened inlet (non exchange) £200 (or can I easily move/modify the radiator?)

custom e/manifold £250

uprated engine mount £50

new belts and bits and bob £100

(GTi-6 cams ?? £50)

 

£1000 near as damn it for not much BHP increase.

 

Are these prices reasonable or optimistic? How much do reconditioned 1.9 Mi16 go for and where to look? I know this must get asked every week but any current info appreciated

 

Kev

[welshpug 1,623]

exhaust I would use the gti6 item, same with the inlet, AFAIK the rad sometimes clears sometimes doesn't.

 

gti6 cams and pulleys would be a good improvement

[pip470 61]

Thanks jegis, I havnt got big power, the engine makes 126hp @ 6500rpm, 10 -15 up on standard. Not sure what you mean about the extra torque, you mean you want more torque rather than out right power. In that case id get a 1.9 rebuilt. With the money your talking there, i would look at rebuilding engine with a healthy compression ratio and a nice cam to give you low down torque, maybe a rally cam. and if you could afford it a set of throttle bodies and management for a smoother idle and overall running. Its still going to be £1000 + but its easier for you so will make a tydier install. And should make 150-60 hp too with oodles more torque low down than a 16v.

[welshpug 1,623]

codswallop about more low down torque than a 16v I'm afraid.

[pip470 61]

Hmmmm i have 60ft times from santa pod to back it up, how do you explain vtecs and the like only using 8valves low down and 16 at higher revs. Im only going of what i have found from driving both engines.

[welshpug 1,623]

if you hadn't noticed this is a Peugeot forum and its a Peugeot engine being discussed.

 

I have both engines in 4 different cars, the 8 valve has 30 NM less torque than the 16v, and 40 BHP less, no contest in it.

[jackherer 543]

how do you explain vtecs and the like only using 8valves low down and 16 at higher revs.

 

VTEC engines use all the valves all the time, its the cam profile that changes.

[pip470 61]

If i would of said the 8v would of had more torque then im sure i would of been wrong as the 16 valve will produce more torque, but i said more low down. The volumetric efficiency Of a 16 valve is rubbish low down in the revs, especially on the mi which is why the pick up after 3500 feels so good, the 8v engine will have more torque from lower revs but die off a lot quicker im sure, i wish i would of had my 1.9 engine on the dyno but i didnt have the money to do that, Im sure the torque would of been much greater from idle to 3000 than the 16 valve. lets say the mi as its equal capacity. I was only answering his a point kev had made about wanting more torque and a nicer engine to drive. I feel the 8valve will produce this with the modifications i said. I think you may of mis read what i actually wrote.

[pip470 61]

[edit] 3-Stage VTEC

Honda also introduced a 3-stage VTEC system in select markets, which combines the features of both SOHC VTEC and SOHC VTEC-E.

 

At low engine speeds, one intake valve is opened off an economy lift cam lobe, and the second valve is just cracked open a little to help promote better swirl in the combustion chamber. Used in conjunction with a 5-wire, wideband O2 sensor, great fuel ecomomy can be realized.

 

At medium engine speeds, both intake valves open off the economy cam lobe with equal lift allowing the engine to produce more power, but at the expense of economy.

 

At high engine speeds, both intake valves are actuated by a high lift cam lobe and produce much higher performance than at the medium speed range, but at an even greater expense of economy.

 

The 3-stage VTEC system was only offered in the Asian and European markets and not in the US market at all.

 

 

Why do i feel like im being ganged up on lol I understand i used the term loosly about the vtech but im not well up on honda engines but i have heard of some of the techniques employed to get different results.

Sorry this has gone off topic

Edited September 3, 2008 by pip470

[welshpug 1,623]

the XU 16v has more torque throughout the rev range than the 8 valve, it "FEELS" gutless low down due to the immense surge of power higher up the revs where the 8 valve simply runs out of puff.

 

the 8 and 16v reach peak Torque at more or less the same RPM, which is 4k, the 16v produces it in far more linear way.

 

the XU7 16v matches the 1.9 8v for torque, but does it in a much nicer way.

 

put simply, if you want more, be it torque or power, go 16v.

 

 

(or 24v )

Edited September 3, 2008 by welshpug

[jackherer 543]

Why do i feel like im being ganged up on lol

 

I assure you I am not ganging up with anyone

[danpug 1]

the XU 16v has more torque throughout the rev range than the 8 valve, it "FEELS" gutless low down due to the immense surge of power higher up the revs where the 8 valve simply runs out of puff.

 

the 8 and 16v reach peak Torque at more or less the same RPM, which is 4k, the 16v produces it in far more linear way.

 

the XU7 16v matches the 1.9 8v for torque, but does it in a much nicer way.

 

put simply, if you want more, be it torque or power, go 16v.

 

 

(or 24v )

 

I'm not ganging up on you either........................but welshpug is right. An mi16 has more torque than an 8v throughout the rev range, sandy posted a comparison a while ago (pug supplied figures iirc). The '8v is more torquey than a 16v low down' rumour needs to be buried once and for all. As i said i'm not picking on you

Edited September 3, 2008 by danpug

[Sandy 189]

The 8v has less inertia and feels more responsive at times as a result, which can be mistaken for being torquier, but the figures prove that it's not, it's just a sensation.

[jengis 0]

Ah, the old 16v vs 8v debate...

 

I think some of you have mis-read phil's comments - I agree a good 1.9 8v will be similar to a 1.8 16v through the mid range(standard engines) I just don't think I would want to spend time and money on an engine swap and still have the same old jetronic management and lumpy delivery.

 

for what its worth, in my opinion, 16v everytime if you want midrange or top-end power...

[jengis 0]

exhaust I would use the gti6 item, same with the inlet, AFAIK the rad sometimes clears sometimes doesn't.

 

gti6 cams and pulleys would be a good improvement

 

 

Ok, thats the info I was after.

 

So your saying I don't need to modify the GTi-6 manifolds if they were used with this engine in a 205? That's not what I would have thought though.