Decisions

[dcc 855]

so, I have got a very nice mi16 sitting on the floor in my garage.

 

I also have a very nice 8v which is still currently in the car, in need for a new headgasket to be fitted.

 

I have 40degree webber carbs, with linkage, and manifold for the 8v also in the garage.

 

my question is, Would you prefer the speed of the 16v, or the grunt and sound of the 8v?

 

im thinking I would prefer the 8v, as the 16v is goign to take too much time and effort, in my opinion, to get fitted and running as I want it!

 

If the general opinion is for the 8v, would you state wether you think its worth using a 1.6box, rather than the 1.9!

 

many thanks,

 

Dan

 

p.s.

 

Its possible that i might have a running MI16 for sale soon! xD with loom and everything else too! (took it out of the 405 myself!)

[James_R 3]

Be the Mi with out a doubt.

 

Better mpg, and better pace, no idle issues. seems like a straight forward decision.

 

but it's what you want to do end of the day.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

this is the question i had for a while and have been told by reputable people that 16v is definitely the way to go!!

 

to me it sounds daunting and expensive because ive read a bits of threads which say about exhaust plates to ensure the mani fits down the bulk head and also ive spent alot of money on a decent exhaust system and mani for the 8v, can this be kept on a 16v, im thinkin not!!!!

 

a description of whats involved and whats need in the whole conversion would be brilliant help!!

[Peetypug 5]

16v

everytime

i had the same dilema, do i do the 8v or go 16v

in reality to get the power of the 16v you need to spend a lot of money on the 8v, then it will be a pig in traffic and drink fuel like i drink cider on a hot summers day

[RonnieG 0]

I have two 205's - One a standard Gti 8v & one Mi16'd.

 

For me the 8v is a good car & the Mi16 conversion makes it an awesome car all round!

 

I had a similar predicament and with owning both - I am currently selling my twin 40 Dellortos to partially fund my Mi16 engine I have just removed from a driving but accident damaged 405. I'm planning to install this over the winter into the Gti 8v....

 

If you avoid the wiring harness & go the coil conversion route first you could avoid the re-wiring until later.

 

I suppose it boils down to how much time/motivation you have and mechanically fit you feel to take the conversion on or who else maybe has one near you could use as a template....

 

It is a time consuming conversion to do, especially the first time, so best going in with your eyes open I suppose than another unfinished project for sale...

[Stu 18]

If you've already got an Mi then its a no brainer, 16v all the way, smooth reliable power without any hassle. All the bits to convert are available off the shelf now more or less.

 

If you hadnt got an Mi, id still say go 16v, but i'd go GTI-6. If my Mi ever went tits up thats the way id go.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

so for a race engine on webers it would be alot simpler due to no wiring harness to worry about!!?

 

whats the list of conversion?!

 

ie

exhaust mani

inlet mani

dizzy

cam belt to a xu9 block

coolant pipes

 

(ps sorry to hijack the thread)

[Rob Thomson 6]

But do you want to spend the rest of your life with one eye on the oil pressure gauge? Ok, that might not apprly to a GTi-6, but the Mi16 in my old 309 did my head in. Great in a straight line, but Pugs aren't for going fast in a straight line.

 

These days I'm much happier with a standard 1.6, but I am getting old.

[McDude 33]

Eight! Eight! Eight!

 

I'm old school and I think that the 8 valver is the heart and soul of the car. I understand why people go down the 16 valve route, but it is not for me.

[dcc 855]

Im in a spot of bother now then,

 

If I were to chose the 16v, I could quite simply say, there is no hope in hell of me being capable of doing the wiring myself.

 

So I put a cry for help! if anybody would offer me some justice with the wiring! ( I have NO idea with this aspect of the car)

 

as far as the engine goes, I could plumb it in my self.

 

now with the carbs, would they fit with the 16v?

 

any peoples who could help me I would <3 you forever!

 

based in south wales btw!

[Baz 421]

What are you doing with it??

 

That's the more important question that really should give you the answer.

[dcc 855]

What are you doing with it??

 

That's the more important question that really should give you the answer.

 

 

not really interested in speed, more in the way of low end grunt, making it move from standing still.

 

I am not racing it, maybe the odd trackday, but want it to be a fun little car, that pulls :>

 

I think im going to get the head done, and run it on carbs.

[Baz 421]

Mi then. no question. The starvation isn't really an issue to stop you using it, especially if it's just a toy.

 

The power hike is soo much more worth it. Sell the carbs and drop in the Mi16.

[GLPoomobile 958]

not really interested in speed, more in the way of low end grunt, making it move from standing still.

 

Let me guess, you've been caught up in that old fable about 8Vs having more low down torque, haven't you?

 

You might get similar performance from a carbed 8v with some work, but it'll drink fuel like it's going out of fashion!

 

Mi for me. They aren't perfect, and I'd rather have a GTI6, but for performance per pound, flexibility, road manners, and running costs it's still preferable to a carbed 8V

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

is an Mi more suited to Injection or Carbs over the 8v?!

 

i know bodies is the ultimate way to go but that the best of £2k

[Baz 421]

Mi's are more suited to std injection, plainly because if you whack on a set of carbs you lose the ignition curve which is very good on std management. No point going backwards.

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

what if you have a re-curved dizzy from H&H to suit the exact setup of the engine, does this sort it?

[James_R 3]

For the money an H&H costs you'd be better off with a MegaJolt least it's mappable then.

 

Then again with that in mind, why not use an XU7 on carbs and Mega Jolt with some 6 cams in it

 

(sorry for thread hijack)

[205johnnyxsi 0]

8v with the 1.6 box and webs cant go wrong do the head from the money back off the 16v sale and you`ll be sorted i dont see the fashion in the 16v unless its a orinal 16v left hand drive.... 8v all the way plus with a 1.6 box there faster shorter ratios with a 1.9 lump

[wardy18 33 1 Cars]

For the money an H&H costs you'd be better off with a MegaJolt least it's mappable then.

 

Then again with that in mind, why not use an XU7 on carbs and Mega Jolt with some 6 cams in it

 

(sorry for thread hijack)

 

Mega Jolt?!?!?!?!?

 

Well in my case im gonna ask Sandy to sort out the internals from a XU7 and do it magic with them when i can get the funds together and ill plant them in the spare XU9 block i have, then ill get hold of a XU10 head and get it Ported and Polished by somewhere/someone to match the 1800 block ill have, then ill use my 45 webers until i can afford bodies and also retain the rally catcam i already run

 

how does that sound?!

 

oh and running a 1900 BE1 box with MI 4:4 CWP and Gripper Diff

Edited April 29, 2008 by wardy18

[danpug 1]

By the time you've forked out on the 8v getting headwork, fitting/setting up carbs etc you still won't have a car with the same grunt as a decent mi16, nor the fuel economy or the nice driveability. Yes carbs sound nice but i'd put money on it that you still won't have the low down grunt of an mi.

[RonnieG 0]

Would have to agree about the alleged grunt of the 8v being better than the 16v low down being an old fable....

 

I still have both 8v & 16v cars and trust me there is nowhere in the rev range the 8v has the same grunt as the 16v.

 

At idle the 8v will stall reasonably easily if you let the clutch up too quick - the 16v will lurch forward and almost run in idle unless on steep hill upwards.

 

1K - 4K Revs - The 16v has really noticeably more torque/power than the 8v throughout this area.

 

4K - 7.5K Revs - The 16v's power is night & day here compared to the 8v.

[welshpug 1,623]

thought I'd illustrate the difference between 2 standard engines with some pretty graphs;

 

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f169/wel...16/l275xwk2.jpg

 

 

Pretty safe to to say that the Mi16 has more torque and power than the 8v I reckon

Edited May 2, 2008 by welshpug

[philfingers 5]

I run an 1900 8v 205 in road rallies at the moment. It's a log booked rally car and has finished Mull twice in the low 60s (out of 180 car entry I thnk, or maybe 175?). Anyway it's making reasonable power the results speak for them selves. It's got a Gp A cam, LAD head (purportedly built for the late Richard Burns when he did the challenge), high compression pistons (possibly std 1600 ones?), L&B balanced etc etc. it runs on std inlet and plenum and ECU. which for road rallies is a regulation. ECU is free, but has to be std inlet manifold and plenum.

It's got a 4.4CWP and 1900 gearset with TranX. With a paddle clutch it's a pig to drive. Drove it last night for the first time since january. It's been taxed, motd and insured but i haven't used it because it's difficult to start, give it any throttle and it stalls, don't give it any throttle and it won't tick over. Now this maybe due to me removing the SAD BUT before you all shout. My old 309 1900 8v had the SAD removed for 5 years and I used it everyday for a while. Sure you had to give it 30-60secs to warm from cold but then it would tickover fine. The 8v i have now is just a pain, which is why I've not driven it recently.

I bought an Mi16 which had been fully rebuilt by HiFlow, got scared off by all the oil surge issues and sold it. 2 rallies later with the cammy, thirsty 8v and I regretted it.

So now have an Mi16 which I'm sorting properly. In the middle of it at the moment and will post pics later over the w/e.

Briefly:-

GTI6 sump, 26t toothed wheel and 52 link chain to drive the oil pump faster, oil pump chain guard, oil pump spring and windage tray. Mi16 oil pump extended with PeterT pump extension. Std sump spacer/ stiffener with the webs cutout. For the folks that shout its a stiffener you can't cut the webs out by thinking is this. If you clamp the short side of a steel sump pan in a vice and twist it, there is some twist. With an alloy one you can't. Yes I agree it's not as stiff without the webs in the spacer but the alloy sump is stiff anyway. I'm not looking for anymore power than std. So I think it's going to be within it's design spec.

I'm also not cutting the inlet or modifying the exhaust. I'm going to either fold the seam out of the way or cut out the bulkhead and weld a new plate in. That way the exhaust manifold is std.

With the sump off the oil level from the dipstick would take another inch over the max level before it even got close to the windage tray. So I'm thinking it would run with more oil no problems. best discuss this all in another thread.

I'll post all the pics of my con version later.

So far the engine has cost me:-

Engine, box and loom and all bits, £280

Gti6 sump, 52 link chain, 26T wheel, pump baffle and pump chain guard £20

Mi16 oil pump with PeterT extension £30

Gti6 windage tray and oil pump spring £10.73 (all new from a dealer!)

new cam and cranks oil seals £15

Cam Belt £13

 

The engine was rebuilt about 3 years ago and seems in fine fettle on the inside, mint crank, bores and cams.

[jackherer 543]

I'm also not cutting the inlet or modifying the exhaust. I'm going to either fold the seam out of the way or cut out the bulkhead and weld a new plate in. That way the exhaust manifold is std.

 

You'll still need to cut n'shut the downpipe. Have you considered a QEP reangling wedge? Much easier than altering the bulkhead...