K&n Cone Filters

[MrG 3]

My 1.9 has come already fitted with a K&N cone filter with the std set up already junked, but squeezed in between the rad etc is the cold air supply and its all squashed etc so must be down to at least 50% of its original size.

So my question is does this type of filter actually work on the 205 and does it provide any reasonable gains over the std system? I am tempted to put the original set up back on but if there's another way to get the cold air to it then I may keep it.

 

The car is a std 1.9GTi with a chipped ecu (apparently according to the writing on the ECU).

 

Thanks all.

[McPikie 0]

Depends

 

I think you gain more BHP at top end, but lose a little torque at the low end.

 

Positioned behind the headlight is good for cold air, especially in this weather. I will put mine back to standard with some heat wrap come summer though

[GLPoomobile 958]

Any gain that you might get with an induction kit on the 205 is going to be so insignificant as to be unnoticeable.

 

Some people have reported their 205 running worse with one fitted and prefer to keep the standard set up. I've never had a problem myself. I always prefer to use the induction kit though as the standard setup can be a bit of a pain if you need to do simple jobs that involve getting at the dizzy, ignition leads, spark plugs etc. Not massively so, but you just end up getting frustrated at having to undo screws and loosen pipes, or remove bits completely just to do simple jobs, when you don;t have that hassle with an induction kit.

 

If it runs OK, leave it as it is and don't worry to much about the crushed air pipe. I'm sure you can improve it somehow. Also remove the little rubber weather seal below the headlight if it's there, as it lets a small amount of air in (as recommended in the K&N instructions).

[MrG 3]

interesting, I've only had it a few days but the drive home was OK and yes it seemed to work fine although idle was a little high.

 

I'll see how it goes and have a play but as you say if it ain't broke and all that.

[Batfink 201]

i put one on because of the noise, did not notice any gain or loss but the grin got bigger

only did it because optimax made the engine run quieter

[Tom Fenton 1,526]

I have to say that in my personal opinion the only horsepower gained from an induction kit is a "grin" horsepower from the noise they make, I guess you either like it or you don't, personally I do, hence my 1.6 has had one fitted recently.

[jackherer 543]

only did it because optimax made the engine run quieter

 

It got rid of the rattly pinking noises?

[christopher 5 1 Cars]

I tried it for a while. I didn't really notice any difference apart from the noise. Personally I think on a standard engine its a waste of money..

 

I moved back to a K & N panel filter for £30. Haven't looked back.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

People will begin to hate me on this subject, but I am a firm believer that (on a road car at least) these after market filters, whether they are air box replacements or the cone type are a complete waste of money.

 

Articles like this one, are only proof that they expose your engine to more damage from poorly filtered items and provide nothing but a noise boost.

 

Your engine wants clean, cool, dense, stabilized and pressurised air to work at its optimum, so how on earth can a crushed K&N filter jammed against your rad be doing your engine and your car's road performance any good?

 

Articles like this ^^ one and this one, suggest very strongly based on test after test, that for performance AND reliability*, a stock type of airbox, with a cheap, stock paper filter and some decent efforts to remove air box intake restrictions, shield the air from heat and place an external air feed at a high pressure point at the front of the vehicle, is the answer to your original question and the best route to take. In fact I'm gonna use a std OEM paper filter in the air box I choose for my hybrid engine, and use the saved £28 plus on a cracking curry instead!

 

I'd ditch it buddy.

 

*Yes - What a combo

Edited January 7, 2008 by DrSarty

[Batfink 201]

It got rid of the rattly pinking noises?

 

nah the tappets drown those noises out

[CaptainK 11]

People will begin to hate me on this subject, but I am a firm believer that (on a road car at least) these after market filters, whether they are air box replacements or the cone type are a complete waste of money.

I'd agree about the cone style filters in the engine bay. I've been to many rolling road sessions with the FTO club (I have an FTO too) and on the rolling road the BHP values are similar for cone and standard airbox. BUT, you do notice a change in torque - the hot air on the cone filters gives a small dip in torque.

 

Its also noticeable on the roads too - even though I have the same model FTO as a few of my friends, they noted that my FTO was pulling away slightly from them. Mine has standard airbox but with a K&N panel filter in it, they have cone filters.

 

I'll have to disagree with you on the paper standard filters vs aftermarket standard airbox filters - I changed my original (newish and still clean) paper filter in my FTO airbox for the K&N equivalent in the standard airbox and I noticed a difference. I did the same to my 205 too, but that one can't be used as an example as the paper filter in the box was minging, so just replacing it like for like would have given me a boost.

[jas-E 1]

The reason i got a k&n filter - which im sure i have read before on this forum is that the location of the standard airbox is not in the best positions in the engine bay. Fair play there isnt enough room anywhere else, but the last thing you want is an airbox positioned above the exhaust.

 

As Dr Sarty said, your engine wants clean, cool, dense, stabilized and pressurised air to work at its optimum. However the air gets less denser as the exhaust heats up which in turn heats the airbox up.

 

If you can shield the airbox from the exhaust heat, then keep it. Otherwise id keep a k&n cone filter if your car came with it but not expect any added power. They do sound good though.

[MrG 3]

interesting stuff, but I think I'll ditch it and use a std set up for the time being and see how I can shield the box from the exhaust heat build up.

[McPikie 0]

interesting stuff, but I think I'll ditch it and use a std set up for the time being and see how I can shield the box from the exhaust heat build up.

Heat wrap the mani, lag the airbox with flashing

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Heat wrap the mani, lag the airbox with flashing

 

Yep.

 

And McPikie. Surely you're offending people with your comment under your avatar? It's 'Pikey'! Don't you get it?

 

 

 

 

 

[DaveW 6]

You could buy a K&n panel filter to fit in the standard airbox..

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

You could buy a K&n panel filter to fit in the standard airbox..

 

Yes, he could. But we talked about that ^^ earlier.

 

At £30ish a pop, I said it's a waste of time and money (just like those very knowledgable web sites say so), although a couple of other forum users said they noticed a difference in performance.

 

In reading the articles thoroughly, I came to understand precisely why they are not beneficial. But people are of course entitled to do what they wish with their money. If it sounds better and makes you feel you're going faster then why not eh?

 

Personally I will never bother again with these things, and will stick (not literally) to paper OEM filters, as they are cheaper and better at filtration. The restrictions (if any) in your air system will be the AFM if appl and the air routes into and out of your airbox.

Edited January 8, 2008 by DrSarty

[GLPoomobile 958]

I'm not disputing for one moment that a proper enclosed air box such as the OE 205 one is better than the induction filter stuffed behind the headlight method that many of us have to employ , but on a 205 I'd still prefer to use an induction kit over the standard airbox PROVIDING the end effect isn't detrimental (and I've never noticed any problems with one).

 

OK, on an 8v it's six or half a dozen really, but when you have an Mi conversion it's a different kettle of fish. Without spending time knocking up something clever that allows you to keep a sealed air box, you don't have a lot of choice but to use an induction kit. And even if you do use a box, your going to have to get creative with the inlet trunking, possibly put a hole in the chassis leg (or inner wing, whatever you want to call it) to route the trunking down to behind the valance. Maybe even move the battery to the boot to free up space. That sort of thing just isn't a possibility for many owners. So as long as the result works OK, we stick cone filter on the end of the AFM.

 

As for costs, think about it, a replacement panel filter (K&N etc) is around £30. You can get a cone filter (Green) for around the same cost, plus an AFM 'top hat adaptor' for another tenner. Then you flog the OE airbox and trunking on eBay for £20. Quids in

 

So as I said, on an 8v I use them cos it makes the engine more accessible, but wouldn;t use one if I had running problems as a result or performance was noticeably down. I use one on the Mi because I don't have an alternative solution.

[DrSarty 90 1 Cars]

Totally agreed with that ^^ Steve. The only way to have a decent sized airbox in a 205 with an Mi16 type engine conversion is to move the battery out.

 

What I was hopefully answering was the generalisation whether these aftermarket filters, cone or 'in-box', are worthwhile cost or performance wise. When you have no choice you have no choice.

[max0 5]

Im not a massive fan.

 

I have seen a machine blowing a ping pong ball in the air about 10cm through a standard air filter then with a k & n the ball was about 20cm high. Good visual way to prove the k&n allows more air flow but i hardly doubt that your engine is struggling to breathe with a standard one...

[saveloy 8]

It isn't simply the less restrictive filter you ned to take into account, it is the shortened induction path. With an engine running an AFM the difference (in increased power and throttle response) is certainly noticeable and real. Also, the cold air passing over an element plays a part. Far better than losing that energy through rubber pipes and steel air box casings.

So there. Nurrrrrrr.

P.S: aren't kites great?!

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

^ agreed. however, if you position a code filter instead of the original airbox like some people do...

[bales 1]

I know this is going slightly off-topic on relation to 205 induction but on a lot of modern care where there is a great deal of induction trunking and baffling inside the airbox to reduce noise the pressure drop caused by these is VERY significant especially in turbo'd cars.

 

Paper filters do have worse air flow figures then cotton or foam filters so dont think that that point can be argued with standard filters being as good as aftermarket. The main advantage with paper is that they provide an average level of filtration and air flow over a longer period of time than an equivalent cotton or foam filter without requiring cleaning. If you look at the majority of motorsport they all use the likes of ITG, green and K@N.

 

I know this is again relating to forced induction but there are some recorded figure for an impreza wrx from my forced induction tuning book where the pressure drop across the airbox, resonator box and air filter is 2.2 psi which is equivalent to about 15bhp on a 200bhp engine!!

 

I suppose my main point is that the old argument the "well the manufacturer spent lots of money developing that so it must be the best solution" is not always correct.

 

And yes I would always put an open filter on a 205 behind the headlight for space and noise reasons and I have never noticed any performance issues.

[brianthemagical 1]

a note on the price argument, a k and n will last for 1 million miles, assuming 10,000 miles a year, thats 100 years on one filter, assuming again that a paper filter should be replaced every year during the service, that would mean if an aftermarket panel filter cost £40, then paper filters, to produce the cost effectiveness, would cost less than 40pence. obviously 'tis a pretty extreme example, but the point is still there.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

you'll have to buy a wash and re-oil kit for the K&N a few times during all those years though .