Tesstuff 222 Posted November 27, 2007 (edited) Hello to the regulars i have been an avid browser until now but would like some advice on a problem thats started this week. I have a very reliable 205 Gentry with the 1.9i 105 bhp engine and its been a solid first time starter since i had a new starter motor in the summer.Then in the last month i have noticed the starting being just a little more laboured and in the back of my mind told myself it was getting colder and maybe i needed a new battery sometime soon. But the battery seems fine overall and it does still always start first time.But then this week another starting niggle has added itself to the equation,it now starts first time but then sort of splutters as though it is going to cut out but within 15 seconds the engine seems to take control of this situation and brings the idle up to around 950 rpm as it should be.So on a cold start ,instead of the idle being higher than 950 rpm for 15 seconds and then settling at 950 rpm ,it starts lower than 950 rpm and moves up to that.The wrong way round compared to normal. So as it starts first time and it isnt stopping me using it in any way i wasnt too worried and have mentioned it to my mechanic who said pop over when i can and he will look at it for me.That was fine until tonight when i started it and went only 8 miles away at low speed,and parked up at my friends for maybe 10 minutes.I came out and started it up again and it was a lower idle than the last week and seemed like it was going to cut out,so i pushed the accelerator and it added revs in a lumpy action but alot of smoke was coming out the exhaust as well.I thought this would instantly clear but it didnt and i waited around 5 mins and then pulled off and for about 800 yards it was still smokey.Then it cleared and all was normal.I stopped again after about 5 miles and this time it started fine ( still lower idle problem but no smoke) and i was fine. So in conclusion i seem to have a component that has failed or is failing that controls my start up and also if i dont touch the accelerator it rights itself and settles at 950rpm but if i 'rev it' it produces smoke,but this is the first time ive ever seen smoke from my exhaust.Other than that the car is excellent and drives perfectly and economically with plenty of performance when required.My oil pressure is always half way and my water temperature stays below half way most of the time,so im confident its a component that controls the start up idle etc. Any advice would be greatly received and if you need any more information just ask. Many thanks Daz Edited November 27, 2007 by Tesstuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted November 27, 2007 I would suspect that the pipework to the SAD (basically cold start valve) is kinked or otherwise obstructed, (runs from underside of inlet manifold, through the sad under the dizzy and into the induction pipe between throttle body and air flow meter) This would allow the extra fuel to be added to the mixture at colder temps., but no extra air to compensate. also I would check that the black plug is still connected to the sad. Finally the sad itself may have given up in the closed position. ( I suspect the pipework as work has been done on the starter and the pipe may have been put out of position during this) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 325 Posted November 27, 2007 Hi ! Yes sounds like theres something wrong with the SAD , but what about that exh. smoke what kind of smoke is it ? black , blue , white .. could be the ECU temp. sensor also if it's black - ovefueling .. Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted November 27, 2007 Hi ! Yes sounds like theres something wrong with the SAD , but what about that exh. smoke what kind of smoke is it ? black , blue , white .. could be the ECU temp. sensor also if it's black - ovefueling .. Damir Extra fuel / no extra air = overfuelling anyway? hence it clears when hot and the ecu sensor stops the cod air fuelling? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted November 27, 2007 I will have a good look at the smoke tomorrow morning and the overfuelling idea would fit in with the heightened smell of petrol inside the car tonight.But it wasnt a pure petrol smell,more like an enginey petrol smell. All the suggestions make alot of sense so the first port of call is the SAD and its plumbing and then take a look at the exhaust and its output and i will report back with my findings. Many thanks so far,greatly appreciated. Daz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob_the_Sparky 9 Posted November 28, 2007 Good luck, many GTis do this odd 10-20 seconds of not very happy when starting from cold then settle down. I've never heard a definitive answer... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob_the_Sparky 9 Posted November 28, 2007 Oh and slow turning starter could be an earth problem or poor alternator (low charge voltage) as well as the battery. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted November 30, 2007 (edited) Ok here is an update. I have used the car everyday since and it has started first time but with this low idle that moves up to normal idle after 15 seconds.Then today i started it after another short run and it once again seemed like it was going to cut out,very lumpy so i once again dabbed the accelerator which did the exact same thing,made alot of smoke come out the exhaust. So i went to the back of the car and instantly smelt coolant so i waited for that to clear and decided to go to the garage to get it sorted.My mechanic was too busy so i popped into C.G Cars which is ran by Carl from the 306 Gti 6 forums who everyone seems to rate very highly.He listened to my explanation and then came out to the car and started her up,it did the same for him ,so he drove it into his garage for a better look. The coolant was low ,obviously due to it being steam each time ive had this problem, and he filled it up.When taking the coolant cap off he said there was pressure there,an air block was a suspicion but he also mentioned head gasket.So he released all the air with the engine running ,filled the water up again and then replaced the cap.Then after 2 minutes he undid the cap and air came out again,this he said was definitely a strong sign of head gasket having gone. The explanation is that the water is in the pistons and the poor lumpy start up is due to this and when i press the accelerator i clear the water out the piston and it leaves via the exhaust as steam.I can agree with that but why do i not get steam if i leave the accelerator alone? If i start her up ,dont touch the accelerator and let the engine 'right' itself then i get no steam.If i dab the accelerator because i think its going to cut out,then i do get the steam. Anyway bottom line is he mentioned he could take the head off and get it tested and tell me if its top or bottom end thats causing the problem.This would cost me £100.The other option would be to right this engine with seals/gaskets/rings etc with a very vague figure of £500 mentioned. Can anyone help me on this as i dont feel the classic signs of head gasket are there,i have a good oil and water reading,it isnt a stressed engine and it had a head skim etc done in January 2007 a few months before i bought it.Suggestions are the head gasket used might have been a poor one.Wet linings? are also a suggestion. I am willing to pay anyone to right this for me but i dont think the 105bhp 1.9i engine is worth £500 being spent on it. But if it can be made useable for a reasonable amount then i can justify that.I have had cam belt change,new water pump,new metal water part all fitted since ive had it and i had hoped that would provide me with a reliable motor. All suggestions and advice would be great at this time because i just feel like giving up at the moment, had hoped i needed a new S.A.D for example. Regards Daz Edited November 30, 2007 by Tesstuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 325 Posted November 30, 2007 (edited) Hello ! I've had similar problem with the engine coolant , and ti wasn't the head gasket - it was cracked cylinder liner You can read more about that here : http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...&hl=coolant http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...75&hl=liner Try this - leave the car standing for at least 12h (24 hours is best or till the next day ..) and then remove the spark plugs from stone cold engine : examine each one carefully and note from which cylinder is it – look for color/strange discoloration , smell , wet/dry condition etc. ... if you found one (or more than one ..) plug wet (and with sweet smell/odor from the spark plug hole and the spark plug..) you've got problem - internal coolant leak .... After that - try the same test but this time remove the plugs from the hot engine : if one (or more than one ..) plug was wet when removed from stone cold engine and now it's dry removed from hot engine this can be a strong evidence of internal coolant leak .. (cracked cylinder liner , hairline crack inside the head - valve seat , inlet/exh. ports , detonation damage on the head gasket fire rings ... all those weird hard to notice leaks cos obviously blown head gasket in the progressive stage will result with massive coolant loose , oil/coolant contamination , overheating etc. ...) Also you can try to look inside the each cylinder trough the spark plug hole with a flashlight - again on stone cold engine remove all the plugs out and turn the crank pulley in order to bring No.1 piston to BDC (bottom dead center ..) and then look inside that No1 cylinder with a flashlight trough the spark plug hole - if you see deep down in-between the piston and cylinder bore wall a little puddle of liquid and wet piston together with the sweet smell/odor from the cylinder it's coolant leak ... repeat this test on the rest 3 cylinders ... hope this helps Damir Edited November 30, 2007 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted November 30, 2007 Hello ! I've had similar problem with the engine coolant , and ti wasn't the head gasket - it was cracked cylinder liner You can read more about that here : http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...&hl=coolant http://forum.205gtidrivers.com/index.php?s...75&hl=liner Try this - leave the car standing for at least 12h (24 hours is best or till the next day ..) and then remove the spark plugs from stone cold engine : examine each one carefully and note from which cylinder is it – look for color/strange discoloration , smell , wet/dry condition etc. ... if you found one (or more than one ..) plug wet (and with sweet smell/odor from the spark plug hole and the spark plug..) you've got problem - internal coolant leak .... After that - try the same test but this time remove the plugs from the hot engine : if one (or more than one ..) plug was wet when removed from stone cold engine and now it's dry removed from hot engine this can be a strong evidence of internal coolant leak .. (cracked cylinder liner , hairline crack inside the head - valve seat , inlet/exh. ports , detonation damage on the head gasket fire rings ... all those weird hard to notice leaks cos obviously blown head gasket in the progressive stage will result with massive coolant loose , oil/coolant contamination , overheating etc. ...) Also you can try to look inside the each cylinder trough the spark plug hole with a flashlight - again on stone cold engine remove all the plugs out and turn the crank pulley in order to bring No.1 piston to BDC (bottom dead center ..) and then look inside that No1 cylinder with a flashlight trough the spark plug hole - if you see deep down in-between the piston and cylinder bore wall a little puddle of liquid and wet piston together with the sweet smell/odor from the cylinder it's coolant leak ... repeat this test on the rest 3 cylinders ... hope this helps Damir Damir , many thanks for your extended and detailed reply it seems very similar to my problem as you said.One tiny problem i have is that im not confident enough to do some of the things you suggested so i wont be able to give you a thorough reply.Can i ask what work was needed to fix your engine? What were the costs in parts and how long did it take? Do you think it will be worthwhile spending much money on this engine? My overall view is that it has had head work completed in January this year,i then did the usual cambelt/water pump change,then had it serviced and replaced a couple of perished items.The car is excellent other than this and if it can be repaired for a reasonable amount i would be happy to spend it,but i also feel very vulnerable and open to being ripped off because of the unknown reason for the problem. Regards Daz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars Posted November 30, 2007 Daz Im sure there are many members ion your area who would be happy to diagnose and fix your car in exchange for beer tokens, after all christmas looms and we could all use a few extra beans. If you were closer I would of happily done it for you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 325 Posted November 30, 2007 (edited) Damir , many thanks for your extended and detailed reply it seems very similar to my problem as you said.One tiny problem i have is that im not confident enough to do some of the things you suggested so i wont be able to give you a thorough reply.Can i ask what work was needed to fix your engine? What were the costs in parts and how long did it take? Do you think it will be worthwhile spending much money on this engine? My overall view is that it has had head work completed in January this year,i then did the usual cambelt/water pump change,then had it serviced and replaced a couple of perished items.The car is excellent other than this and if it can be repaired for a reasonable amount i would be happy to spend it,but i also feel very vulnerable and open to being ripped off because of the unknown reason for the problem. Regards Daz Ok. but don't go to garages for repair of this engine (my guess is that they will ripe you off , if you've over here i could help you out !) anyway I'm sure that you can find someone from here who can , know how an will help you with this problem So boys is anyone near our friend Daz and kind to give him a hand regarding exact diagnose and repair of this problem ? Well I've repaired my engine by myself (always doing this and all the other repairs by myself ..) so the only costs for me was the ones for the new spare parts , in my case I've had to buy new : head bolts head gasket inlet/exhaust manifold gaskets one cylinder liner O ring seal new timing belt sump gasket (I've replace that cracked liner with one of my spare ones , i didn't buy new one !) In your money all this was around 50-60 quid total . As for the job it was a must to remove the cylinder head , clean/re-check everything , skim the head a bit , re-lap the valves (not all necessary but i like to do a complete job when I'm working !) etc. open up the sump , remove the sump spacer plate , remove the oil pump and unscrew No.4 conrod/piston nuts and remove (from the top ..) this cracked liner together with the piston out from the block... remove piston out from this cracked liner and fit him in another good spare cylinder liner , fit new bottom liner O ring seal on this spare liner (checking the liner protrusion and cleaning of the liner seal surface first ! and liner/seal contact area inside the block ..) , refit/push the liner with piston back inside the block , tight back the conrod nuts on the crankshaft , refit the oil pump , refit/reseal the sump spacer , replace sump gasket with a little bit of sealant and refit the sump back on the block .. then working from the top - fit new head gasket , fit the head , tight with new head bolts etc. etc. ... Damir Edited November 30, 2007 by DamirGTI Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted November 30, 2007 Ok. but don't go to garages for repair of this engine (my guess is that they will ripe you off , if you've over here i could help you out !) anyway I'm sure that you can find someone from here who can , know how an will help you with this problem So boys is anyone near our friend Daz and kind to give him a hand regarding exact diagnose and repair of this problem ? Well I've repaired my engine by myself (always doing this and all the other repairs by myself ..) so the only costs for me was the ones for the new spare parts , in my case I've had to buy new : head bolts head gasket inlet/exhaust manifold gaskets one cylinder liner O ring seal new timing belt sump gasket (I've replace that cracked liner with one of my spare ones , i didn't buy new one !) In your money all this was around 50-60 quid total . As for the job it was a must to remove the cylinder head , clean/re-check everything , skim the head a bit , re-lap the valves (not all necessary but i like to do a complete job when I'm working !) etc. open up the sump , remove the sump spacer plate , remove the oil pump and unscrew No.4 conrod/piston nuts and remove (from the top ..) this cracked liner together with the piston out from the block... remove piston out from this cracked liner and fit him in another good spare cylinder liner , fit new bottom liner O ring seal on this spare liner (checking the liner protrusion and cleaning of the liner seal surface first ! and liner/seal contact area inside the block ..) , refit/push the liner with piston back inside the block , tight back the conrod nuts on the crankshaft , refit the oil pump , refit/reseal the sump spacer , replace sump gasket with a little bit of sealant and refit the sump back on the block .. then working from the top - fit the new head gasket , fit the head , tight with new head bolts etc. etc. ... Damir Thank you for spending the time to explain the job to me Damir i am now only upset you dont live locally! So can i confirm i will be very happy to pay anyone to sort this for me .I am a computer guru by trade and could repair/upgrade/build/diagnose/ any computer problems in part payment or just hard cash for Xmas...whatever suits.I just dont want to break this rare car or sell it after spending so much making it so good. and Richie-Van-Gti...isnt Middlesborough just down the road from Leicester haha Regards Daz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 325 Posted November 30, 2007 Daz Im sure there are many members ion your area who would be happy to diagnose and fix your car in exchange for beer tokens, after all christmas looms and we could all use a few extra beans. If you were closer I would of happily done it for you. That's the spirit ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DamirGTI 325 Posted November 30, 2007 Thank you for spending the time to explain the job to me Damir i am now only upset you dont live locally! So can i confirm i will be very happy to pay anyone to sort this for me .I am a computer guru by trade and could repair/upgrade/build/diagnose/ any computer problems in part payment or just hard cash for Xmas...whatever suits.I just dont want to break this rare car or sell it after spending so much making it so good. and Richie-Van-Gti...isnt Middlesborough just down the road from Leicester haha Regards Daz No probs , always on service if i can help ! but yes i live miles away from you ... never mind plenty of good/kind people here who can help you out just : don't break this car !!! Cheers ! Damir Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve@cornwall 100 Posted November 30, 2007 Something I learned this year- steam through the exhaust can also be caused by a badly fitted inlet manifold. There are waterwayys for a heated manifold not used in the injection head. As yours has had recent work in this area, it may well be worth investigating. I personally now prefer to use instant gasket as a means of filling these waterways and sealing the manifold. Drain some coolant (loosen bottom rad hose - about a gallon should be enough and if you use a clean container you can even put it back after!) remove the 5 nuts holding the manifold on and pull manifold forward Thoroughly clean both mating surfaces Apply a thin smear of instant gasket to mating surface of manifold, and a liberal smear into waterway replace manifold As this should take about an hour tops, and cost about 3 quid, it's always worth a try - would have saved me an engine change earlier this year Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
philfingers 5 Posted December 1, 2007 Have you had the cooling system pressure checked? Basically they put a cap on the res which applies a pressure to the system, 10 psi maybe. It will then force the water out, be it into the liners. You'll see a pressure drop, indicating a leak. Is the gentry an auto? Could be the seals at the bottom of the liners were dislodged when the head was off? Phil Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted December 3, 2007 OK update time It is definite blown head gasket and today is the last day i will be able to drive it.I have all the classic signs now and its got me home and thats where it will stay. Is anyone able to suggest prices to repair ? This is just ball park stuff so i can gauge quotes. I have just had a look on eBay and there are alot of 306 engines with manual gearbox ,lowish in mileage and at lowish prices and i am not fussed which engine goes in it , i just need reliability. My question is will the 306 engines fit straight in ? How much would i pay someone to remove my engine and fit another one ? I can see this being breaker material to be honest , but if i can get lucky i will pay out on it. Thankyou for any replies they all help me make a decision Regards Daz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pug_ham 240 3 Cars Posted December 3, 2007 Daz, you could try www.205parts.com in Kibworth near Leicester & often you'll find other members from this forum down there. The owner is also a member on here also & could do the work. He won't rip you off like a normal garage might. Graham. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tesstuff 222 Posted December 3, 2007 Daz, you could try www.205parts.com in Kibworth near Leicester & often you'll find other members from this forum down there. The owner is also a member on here also & could do the work. He won't rip you off like a normal garage might. Graham. Graham thankyou for that i have now emailed them and asked for help and opinions,i really hope it goes ok,its such a horrible feeling when your pride and joy dies ! Many thanks mate Daz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
