Power From A Well Sorted 8v? Advice?

[sussex_gti 0]

Hi all,

 

i'm unsure if i'm going to go down the 16v route, as A) i dont really have the time, its a daily driver, and theres been so many converted now, seems a shame to take away the originality of the car. Mine was fitted with a re-conned engine 10k ago, and is a fantastic engine.

 

My thoughts are to fit a mild cam, carb set-up, and have everything set up correctly on the rolling road, which luckily i have 5 minutes from me. Added to the exhaust and manifold i have fitted, i feel this would be a good, usuable set-up which will be fun to drive, and give reasonable power. Any thoughts/ advice please?

 

cheers,

 

Chris.

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Please don;t fit carb's, A waste of time and money, Much better off with Throttle bodies as you never really have to tune them up unless your engine spec changes, Other than that you'll gain mapable ignition too along with your other idea's are fine

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Personally I'd go 16v, and I run a tweaked 8v because I thought as you do when I started out...

 

A factory tune 16v will be better behaved and cheaper than a tuned 8v plus if you get the bug later you have the option of getting quite a bit more power.

 

I have a fairly mild cam, flowed head (details unknown) plus 10.4:1 compression but otherwise stock and yes it is a fun car but to get it running nicely really needs TBs and management but if you like originallity then this is a long way from there and it is quite an investment. It makes good power (not measured) but will make more with better ignition timing as the stock curves are now not ideal requiring me to retard it quite a bit to prevent mid-range pinking.

 

I'm not saying it isn't a good car just not as good as it could have been for the amount spent...

 

Rob

 

Rob

[Anthony 1,000]

A factory tune 16v will be better behaved and cheaper than a tuned 8v plus if you get the bug later you have the option of getting quite a bit more power.

Not sure that I completely agree with that Rob.

 

No question of the power potential that the 16v engine has over the 8v, but cheaper and better behaved I'm not so sure about.

 

My modified 8v is fully rebuilt, has a flowed XU10 head and a mild cam and vernier, and I reckon all in has cost me about £400. Generally speaking, that's about what people seem to pay for a Mi16 with 100k+ miles on it that's crying out for a rebuild, and factor in a rebuild and you're looking at £1000+, and then there's other potential costs like reangled manifolds etc if you can't do that yourself.

 

Behavour of it I really can't fault - starts and idles perfectly on the button, and pulls cleanly and strongly from idle to the limiter, and has given me far less problems than most people seem to get with Mi management. The ignition curve isn't ideal and like you I've had to pull back the timing to stop it pinking around 3k, but it's still quick enough to give an average Mi a fright, return 35mpg all day in road use and I know that it'll stay out on track all day without a care.

 

I don't regret keeping mine 8v, put it that way, despite the fact that a 16v'er would be quicker and have more potential.

[ashley peddle 3]

i agree with ant and im affraid i totaly disagree with miles on this one...

 

i had a tuned 8v on carbs (silly compression head, lumpy cam and proper rr set up) and the thing flew... cost the same as an mi16 set up and was faster... started first time every time. it was simple to work on, sounded 10 times better than an Mi16, was more individual...

 

i say go for carbs and cam... if the lumpy idol dont make you grin then the induction roar will make you piss your pants

[daza4 24]

i agree with ant and im affraid i totaly disagree with miles on this one...

 

i had a tuned 8v on carbs (silly compression head, lumpy cam and proper rr set up) and the thing flew... cost the same as an mi16 set up and was faster... started first time every time. it was simple to work on, sounded 10 times better than an Mi16, was more individual...

 

i say go for carbs and cam... if the lumpy idol dont make you grin then the induction roar will make you piss your pants

 

 

That is exactly what I have but with a slight twist. I have the weber alpha system on mine so is ecu controlled via a tps on the carbs and a trigger wheel on the crank using a 106 coil pack.

 

I am currently re-building a Longman engine with a 270 cam and longman head on it to run with the carbs. The only downside of my route is the fact I have to go to a rolling road that do the weber alpha tuning aswell (only dealers have the software ) So once this is set up and running should be a sweet fast road car and like Anthony said

"I know that it'll stay out on track all day without a care."

 

I also prefer the fact that most people go to 16v power and that leaves just a few tuned 8v out there. I like staying with what peugeot wanted in my 205.

 

Will be going for some other form of tune in the next project but thats a different story altogether.

Edited October 26, 2007 by daza4

[ashley peddle 3]

plus you get to have "its only an 8v" written at the bottom of your number plate

[Guest oilburner]

i agree with ant and im affraid i totaly disagree with miles on this one...

 

i had a tuned 8v on carbs (silly compression head, lumpy cam and proper rr set up) and the thing flew... cost the same as an mi16 set up and was faster... started first time every time. it was simple to work on, sounded 10 times better than an Mi16, was more individual...

 

i say go for carbs and cam... if the lumpy idol dont make you grin then the induction roar will make you piss your pants

 

I love that final summary : F........NG Brilliant!!!!! hahahahaha!!!!!!

[Rob_the_Sparky 9]

Not sure that I completely agree with that Rob.

 

No question of the power potential that the 16v engine has over the 8v, but cheaper and better behaved I'm not so sure about.

 

My modified 8v is fully rebuilt, has a flowed XU10 head and a mild cam and vernier, and I reckon all in has cost me about £400. Generally speaking, that's about what people seem to pay for a Mi16 with 100k+ miles on it that's crying out for a rebuild, and factor in a rebuild and you're looking at £1000+, and then there's other potential costs like reangled manifolds etc if you can't do that yourself.

 

Behavour of it I really can't fault - starts and idles perfectly on the button, and pulls cleanly and strongly from idle to the limiter, and has given me far less problems than most people seem to get with Mi management. The ignition curve isn't ideal and like you I've had to pull back the timing to stop it pinking around 3k, but it's still quick enough to give an average Mi a fright, return 35mpg all day in road use and I know that it'll stay out on track all day without a care.

 

I don't regret keeping mine 8v, put it that way, despite the fact that a 16v'er would be quicker and have more potential.

 

Thing is if you fit new pistons and liners to an 8v during the re-build it isn't going to cost £400 as they are ~£300 (IIRC) and as you've used an XU10 head rather then trying to tune an XU9 head you have saved a packet. Interesting that yours does 35 as I used to get 35 before my re-build but can't get more than 32 now and generally it is 30mpg.

 

As much as I like driving mine it still needs money spent to get it to run as I'd like it (waiting for H&H to answer an e-mail at the moment about a re-curved dizzy). Ideally it needs an ECU but that is mega bucks to fit and then it will need tuning and pretty much enforces the use of throttle bodies when I really didn't want to molest the car too much. I'm glad yours is well behaved but when you tune an engine you can't guarantee it will run right when done (unless you fit full ECU from the off). If you fit a factory tune engine and ECU then you know it will run reliably...

 

I guess you have had hassle with your Mis and I've had hassle with my 8v so we see this from two interestingly different angles!

 

Rob

[CaptainK 11]

I'm sticking with my original 8v engine. Apart from its oil / oil pressure problem thats just popped up I know its good as its got new rings & liners & shells.

Once I've sorted the apparently oil pressure problem & the minor leak then its off to my local tuners for tweaking. Can't wait to find out what can be done to my 8v and what benefits it'll realise.

[DamirGTI 327]

(waiting for H&H to answer an e-mail at the moment about a re-curved dizzy).

 

Hello !

 

Rob , a word of advice - do phone them instead of sending e-mails you will save yourself a lot of time I've been sending them at least 10 e-mails asking for info about that recurving job (once they receive your dizzy they will contact you but i could not contact them before sending the dizzy ...) , and i didn't get reply on any of them until i asked Henry from here to phone them for me

Me thinks that they are too busy for banging on the PC replying to e-mails etc.

 

Regards !

Damir

[Alastairh 47]

The way i see it:

 

You want a daily drive? Yeah?

 

Well as Miles said, id rule carbs out.

 

Ashley, how many times did you tweek your cards? Not something id be wanting to do at 6am in my street when i leave for work. Plus you got 180ish miles to a tank cruising at 80 mph in 5th gear on a 1.6 box to the ring, so not something id like as a daily, even my 306 was slightly better, and that hurt me

 

Ant has done well with that 8 valve. Hes proved you can get quite a bit out of them, for not much money. But beyond that, your looking into Seans market... Anthony has a lot of know how and good skills, so not just a simple bolt on thing to do and done a fair amount of research.

 

Ant, you say about 100k Mi engines costing £400. Where do you see them? The last one i had seen for sale was mine i got out of a 405 on a quick buck turn around. Thats why GTI6's are becoming soo popular. Your right, tey are all dead, and need rebuildng. The 6's don't just give them a service, adn drop them in and away you go up setting WRX's

 

No afms, No taccy relays, no dizzy caps like on mi's (Sorry Ant that might hit the wounds from CWY ) they start up straight away, and sound awesome. I used mine every day, the managment seems to work well.

 

Personally i just can't see using a carb'd 8v 205 everyday as ideal.

 

Alastair

Edited October 26, 2007 by Alastairh

[sonofsam 5]

No afms, No taccy relays, no dizzy caps like on mi's (Sorry Ant that might hit the wounds from CWY ) they start up straight away, and sound awesome. I used mine every day, the managment seems to work well.

 

You talking about a 8v 2.0 T there. I dont know why Im bothering commenting though !

[Anthony 1,000]

Thing is if you fit new pistons and liners to an 8v during the re-build it isn't going to cost £400 as they are ~£300 (IIRC) and as you've used an XU10 head rather then trying to tune an XU9 head you have saved a packet. Interesting that yours does 35 as I used to get 35 before my re-build but can't get more than 32 now and generally it is 30mpg.

Mine has actually got new pistons and liners, although clearly I didn't pay anything even approaching what the bottom end cost to rebuild.

 

I was pleasantly suprised at how economical the engine was, and is only about 1mpg worse than the 1.6 that it replaced despite gaining 325cc and probably another 25hp or so. I'm sure with the ignition timing sorted properly it would improve a little as well, as it might do too if I stopped thrashing the nuts off it... but where'd be the fun in that?

 

As much as I like driving mine it still needs money spent to get it to run as I'd like it (waiting for H&H to answer an e-mail at the moment about a re-curved dizzy). Ideally it needs an ECU but that is mega bucks to fit and then it will need tuning and pretty much enforces the use of throttle bodies when I really didn't want to molest the car too much.

I considered going down the H&H route for a recurved dizzy to suit my engine, but for the same money I could have fitted Megajolt which would have given the same result initially, and the option of spending the money on an hour or two rolling road time to properly optimise the ignition timing with a result far better than a dizzy could ever give. As it happens I managed to lay my hands on a ready built Megasquirt 2 for not much more than a Megajolt would have cost me, so I now have the option of playing around with fuelling if/when I see fit (or atleast I will do if/when I ever get around to fitting it).

 

And why does it enforce the use of throttle bodies? You can run the standard inlet just fine, just need to swap the throttle switch over to a proper potentiometer and it should work fine and without the restriction of an AFM (just like MP3.1 does infact). Of course, I'm not suggesting that throttle bodies aren't a tempting option that's available with a proper mappable ECU...

 

I'm glad yours is well behaved but when you tune an engine you can't guarantee it will run right when done (unless you fit full ECU from the off). If you fit a factory tune engine and ECU then you know it will run reliably...

The first part is true of course although so long as you base your modifications around limitations caused by the standard management and ignition, and go down an already proven route, then there's no reason that it shouldn't work fine. I'm not entirely convinced about the reliability part though, with modern engine management having so many more sensors etc to go wrong and makes diagnosing faults that much more difficult.

 

I guess you have had hassle with your Mis and I've had hassle with my 8v so we see this from two interestingly different angles!

Very true - my luck with Mi16 engines is the stuff of legends

[Anthony 1,000]

Well as Miles said, id rule carbs out.

I'd agree with that - sorry Ash! The noise of carbs is awesome no doubt of that, and outright power is good as well, but otherwise they're very compromised compared to injection. Fuel economy isn't good and low-rev tractability isn't very good either.

 

Ant has done well with that 8 valve. Hes proved you can get quite a bit out of them, for not much money. But beyond that, your looking into Seans market... Anthony has a lot of know how and good skills, so not just a simple bolt on thing to do and done a fair amount of research.

There's plenty more to come from it hopefully before I give in and turn to the dark side. I've got a lairier cam and Megasquirt hopefully going on this winter, which should net another 10hp or so easily enough and hopefully make it even more frantic.

 

Ant, you say about 100k Mi engines costing £400. Where do you see them? The last one i had seen for sale was mine i got out of a 405 on a quick buck turn around. Thats why GTI6's are becoming soo popular. Your right, tey are all dead, and need rebuildng. The 6's don't just give them a service, adn drop them in and away you go up setting WRX's

Certainly I'd go with the GTi-6 these days rather than a tired Mi, but the point is that, from what I've seen atleast, most people don't and still go down the Mi16 route. Why I don't really know - the engines aren't quite as easy to get hold of I guess (especially if you want a known good one that doesn't tap and hasn't had a cambelt snap), and it's a somewhat more involved conversion, and then there's people that worry about a few extra kg...

 

You talking about a 8v 2.0 T there. I dont know why Im bothering commenting though !

For a daily driver that's actually a very good choice - £300 or less to buy, reasonable economy, and quick with a wide torque band - but as an enjoyable engine I'm going to reserve judgement until I've driven a few others, as in truth the ones I've driven I've found, well, a bit dull. I think the problem stems from the fact that there's no drama and they feel alot slower than they are (as lets be honest, a 150-180hp 205 isn't slow!) thanks to their lazy character - more of a GT than a GTi, if you like.

[gti_al 1]

I like my mi16... it was fully rebuilt, and had some minor tweaks. It is incredibly road-friendly too, and just got away from a 5.7l V8 commodore. Worked 8 valves may be good, but it is still a modified engine and i can't help but think that will result in compromises somewhere - whether that be manners, lifespan, economy etc. The mi16s need to be reved, but that is half the fun - they have a brilliant split personality, and can be calm/smooth/friendly, or loud and nuts.

 

The new engine in my car is insanely economical too. Even with a few hot runs it did 250km off 20l. My BMW does about half that - and without being pushed.

[Banjo 1]

[danpug 1]

Is that the longmans built engine that cost silly money?

Edited October 26, 2007 by danpug

[Alastairh 47]

Is that the longmans built engine that cost silly money?

 

exactly

 

Your not exactly gonna be able to drive that down the shops though are you? And besides, the turbo will give that a push