Alternative To The Mi/gti6

[Powers 13]

The H-series is a very credible alternative, better in some ways (simpler management needed, engine opposite driver, LSD standard on the H22A7, smoother) and is slightly easier to fit in the 205/309.

 

 

Thats a good point. I wish my car was LHD!

 

I'm not saying XU's are rubbish (they are still amongst the most best engines available), but nobody makes 4 cylinders like Honda IMO!

 

I agree 100%!

[WildCards 0]

A good freind if mine has a DC2 B18C engine in his 306. He has found though that it didn't make much more power running on fireblade throttle bodies to the standard induction system and has swapped back. I'm sure however that with enough money spent and enough time researching good gains could be made with throttle bodies. He found alot of information in America was useful as they apparently love the Integra's and alot of conversion are done over there apparently, it may be worthwhile buying an engine and getting it shipped given the exchange rate currently.

[Batfink 201]

how was the inlet manifold designed. Sandy was saying once that if silicon hose is used then this really cocks up (technical term) the flow.

 

I've yet to see a bike body conversion that makes good power over standard on any car which is a shame..

[Sandy 189]

It's not always the case that peak power will be significantly improved, usually the biggest gains are in the mid range, but these gains won't materialise if it is compromised in the same way many bike bodies conversions are, ie:

To short tract length

Tract shape too convoluted

Management or mapping issues

Most of the American Honda tuning info i've found, has related to drag use (and boost) and not the kind of power delivery we seek for effective track or road use. The parts are certainly cheap though, thanks to the economies of scale of the biggest domestic car market in the world!

 

Here's a graph from Jenvey of the S2000 engine without and with a (optimised presumably) TB set up:

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/Kits/pgCKH05.gif

 

Here's my original results of my ATR engine on 50mm bodies versus an average graph from a standard plenum ATR with induction kit:

http://noboost.com/temp/sandy/GridgraphATR2.JPG

For example, at 3750rpm, mine showed more power at the wheels than the standard engine on plenum shows at the flywheel!

[Powers 13]

You can even buy a custom bell housing to mount the s2000 engine FWD with a K series gearbox, now that would be interesting!

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

I must have misunderstood Maxi. But I'm not sure most people are aware of the depth of the conversions we've done/are doing.

 

The XU7J4 is like an Mi16 with a sump baffle and GTi6 head, but without spraybars. I didn't have any trouble with mine on road or track, but didn't run it for that long. I had a proper pressure gauge and warning light. The rods are crank aligned.

 

The K20/24 is an amazing engine, but the prices are getting driven up now by demand. The H-series is a very credible alternative, better in some ways (simpler management needed, engine opposite driver, LSD standard on the H22A7, smoother) and is slightly easier to fit in the 205/309. Both of these engines in standard trim with TBs will give a more substantial power delivery than even a highly tuned B-series for only a minimal weight penalty. I've detailed the cost thing before, but I reckon it'll cost less than getting the equivalent power from a tuned XU to do a proper conversion (in total) with TB's and suspension improvements etc. It won't need rebuilds like a tuned XU, it won't use as much fuel (driving normally), it's less likely grenade itself, the gearboxes are better, VTEC means you don't have to live with severe cams all the time and there's a touch of novelty value! I'm not saying XU's are rubbish (they are still amongst the most best engines available), but nobody makes 4 cylinders like Honda IMO!

 

 

I was not trying to offend or take anything away from you. I think the conversion you have completed and that you have ongoing are brilliant and not easy in any way, shape or form. I was merely stating there are other members which float about in the background of this forum and dont post who have been using these engines and STD honda management in other cars for years.

 

Maxi

Edited November 21, 2007 by maxi

[engine killer 5]

It's not always the case that peak power will be significantly improved, usually the biggest gains are in the mid range, but these gains won't materialise if it is compromised in the same way many bike bodies conversions are, ie:

To short tract length

Tract shape too convoluted

Management or mapping issues

Most of the American Honda tuning info i've found, has related to drag use (and boost) and not the kind of power delivery we seek for effective track or road use. The parts are certainly cheap though, thanks to the economies of scale of the biggest domestic car market in the world!

 

Here's a graph from Jenvey of the S2000 engine without and with a (optimised presumably) TB set up:

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/Kits/pgCKH05.gif

 

Here's my original results of my ATR engine on 50mm bodies versus an average graph from a standard plenum ATR with induction kit:

http://noboost.com/temp/sandy/GridgraphATR2.JPG

For example, at 3750rpm, mine showed more power at the wheels than the standard engine on plenum shows at the flywheel!

 

 

Hi Sandy, may I ask how much will a B16A/B, B18C and K20A cost in UK? We get the opposite in Hong Kong, we get plenty of Honda engines everywhere but hardly find any Mi16 and GTi6 engines in here.

 

My friends tuned a lot of Hondas and TODA cams and HONDATA are the best and cheap solution for tuning B and K series, what's your suggestion/recommendation?

[Sandy 189]

A complete engine/box and ancillaries B16A ~£700-1000, B18C (ITR) ~£1500, K20A (CTR/ITR) ~£2000-2500. For comparison, a H22A complete is around £500-750, so quite a bargain.

 

A friend of mine is currently doing some development work on K20A endurance racing engines and they've so far found that the only cams that genuinely offered a better spread of power than the standard ones re-timed, were Mugen ones. The others they've tried (inc TODA afaik) just improved peak but lost power everywhere else. I've seen some similar research/results on the S2000 engine that showed that the port shape and dimensions had a distinct relationship with the cam profile and alterations invariably lost more power than was gained over the required rpm range. Tricky engines to tune! Hondata seemsto be a good plug in solution, but if what I'm told about the trigger method used is true, it's a bit crude compared to an aftermarket ECU with a conventional 36-1 or 60-2 trigger wheel.

[engine killer 5]

it seems the Honda engines in UK is more or less the same as in Hong Kong, I thought it would be more more expensive.

 

The S2000 (F20C) seems similar to K20A but rarer to see even in here.

 

regarding to the ECU, Hondata seems the simplest for Honda engines but not as good as Autronic. for the group N we use Hondata but for the group A we use Autronic. friend of mine tried M3D on my 8V205 with pipercam before, it just hadn't got the function to keep a smooth idle when air-conditioning is on. but the Autronic seems handling much much better now. as far as i know the latest version even has the flat shift and launch control built-in.

 

wanted to learn how to map the Autronic to make the idle down to 900-1000rpm but I am just too dumb to understand those functions and buttons.

[Sandy 189]

Some of the newer systems, (eg DTA S-series) have features such as A/C compensation etc, but for the kind of cars we build, it's irrelevant.

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

The XU7J4 is like an Mi16 with a sump baffle and GTi6 head, but without spraybars. I didn't have any trouble with mine on road or track, but didn't run it for that long. I had a proper pressure gauge and warning light. The rods are crank aligned.

That does sound like a good thing imo, there will be less oil running around the block & with crank located pistons they will work a lot more like the 8v's & be highly resistant against surge.

 

Basically its pretty much an 8v engine with a 16v head.

 

Thanks Sandy, ideas bulding wildly in my mind now.

 

Graham.

[Powers 13]

Hondata is great for Honda engines in Honda chassis, but here in the U.K there is still a shortage of tuners. But saying that there are loads of maps on the net for every conceivable engine modification!

 

Enginekiller - Whats the price of a K20a2 (Civic Type R engine EP3 shape) in Hong Kong?