Alternative To The Mi/gti6

[welshpug 1,622]

Hi all, got a few questions and ideas to throw about following a conversation with a friend.

 

basically she (yes...) wants to build a track car, be it a 205 or a 106, and use a 1.6 honda VTEC engine.

 

all I know about them is that they rev, and rev, and rev! if you get the right version you can have 160 bhp out of the box if i'm not mistaken.

 

so what kind of work is involved? I know custom shafts and engine mounts would be required, especially as the engine sits on the opposite side of the bay!

 

management wise I think using the original systems would suffice as the engine would remain standard, a friend can supply Megasquirt if needs be.

 

 

Taking a cue from the 309 typerio, something like this - naughty link to ebay would be an ideal base car, or a basic 205, or even a gti if one comes along cheap enough.

 

so what's the thought and opinions?

[Sandy 189]

I'm all for it, but you do need access to good quality fabrication, that's mighty important! Fitting the engine in is fairly straight forward, but making the driveshafts, plumbing it and getting the management sorted are what define the quality of the end result.

 

I wouldn't use the 106, I've evaluated this for a couple of people already and to fit the 1.6/1.8 (B-series) would mean moving the master cylinder/servo, which raises several issues in terms of packaging and cost. A 205 would be much easier. Fitting the later (K-series) clockwise engine in a 106 is also a big issue due to exhaust and inlet location, plus the low chassis legs on the 106 will be a problem for gearbox clearance.

 

Custom shafts are quite easily done by someone that knows what they are doing and can get the lengths right. Mine are Peugeot outers with Honda inners, professionally welded between and they are flawless.

 

I haven't looked into what's involved to get the Honda EFI working, I always intended to use DTA (and TBs) on mine from the start. To do this with the anti-clock engines, you'll need to fit a trigger wheel/sensor.

 

The beauty of a VTEC conversion for me is this: I have a standard (except the TBs) engine giving over 230bhp and substantial torque, for around the same cost (all told) as an XU tuned to the same power. But it has a smooth/economical/good mannered nature during normal driving and would be happy with normal servicing. On top of that, it has a brilliant gearbox with a fabulous shift, LSD and great ratios for free effectively, it sounds like the end of the world is coming on VTEC and the novelty doesn't go amiss either!

 

It's alot of hassle to sort out, but worth it IMO.

[StuartE 0]

As you can see from the picture a Honda B16 fits in the engine bay like a glove.

[welshpug 1,622]

damn that looks good in there

 

I'm not clued up on Honda engine numbers, B16 would be 1.6 B series, which are the 160bhp version?

 

how different are the external dimensions between 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0?

(i.e are they like XU and K series where the block and heads are pretty much identical?)

[StuartE 0]

I'm not clued up on Honda engine numbers, B16 would be 1.6 B series, which are the 160bhp version?

Well yes and no, there are quite a few variants of the B16 engine but the most common one (B16A1) is what you have quoted.

 

how different are the external dimensions between 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0?

(i.e are they like XU and K series where the block and heads are pretty much identical?)

Yes they are all very similar and parts are interchangeable. Only the 1.6 and 1.8 are VTEC but it is possible to turn the B20 into a VTEC engine.

I'll not ramble on any longer as I don't want to confuse things.

 

Have a read of this if you want to know more about the specs of B series motors.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

so fitting a 190 bhp ITR B18 would involve virtually the same amount of work?

 

don't think a 160 bhp B16 is worth all the work really...

[welshpug 1,622]

so fitting a 190 bhp ITR B18 would involve virtually the same amount of work?

 

don't think a 160 bhp B16 is worth all the work really...

 

 

with how rare the Integra is over here, and how common the B16 engine is, you can imagine the difference in the cost of parts.....

 

a B18 may be considered as it seems not to be any more work, but probably not the 190+ bhp integra lump (180 odd bhp will have to do )

[Sandy 189]

Bear in mind that VTEC engines respond very well to a well suited TB set up. Here's a rough graph of my H22A7 on 50mm TBs (now running 45mm, but no figures yet), comnpared to a standard H22A7 with de-cat and induction kit:

 

 

And here's the graph from a test Jenvey did of the S2000 engine with and without TBs:

 

http://www.jenvey.co.uk/Imgs/Kits/pgCKH05.gif

[Sandy 189]

The Integra engine isn't common or cheap, figure on about £1800-2000 for all the parts you need for the swap, but compare that to the cost (and likelihood) of building a reliable, low maintenance, economical and good mannered TU or XU. And then there's the gearbox!

[TurboSam 5]

although not into a peugeot, I bet theres a lot of useful info on the vtec conversion here:

 

http://www.16vminiclub.com/

[Guest adamw1988]

has anyone ever fitted a 2.2 vtec from a prelude 2 a 205. Does it fitmy friend is building a car and has 2 donor preludes i no alot of work would be required just wanted 2 no if it is possible or better getting a 1.6

[Baz 421]

has anyone ever fitted a 2.2 vtec from a prelude 2 a 205. Does it fitmy friend is building a car and has 2 donor preludes i no alot of work would be required just wanted 2 no if it is possible or better getting a 1.6

 

I think i'm right in saying that that essential engine, albeit a later one from an Accoird Type R is what Sandy has in his 309, so i wouldn't have thought it'd be too different.

[Guest adamw1988]

I think i'm right in saying that that essential engine, albeit a later one from an Accoird Type R is what Sandy has in his 309, so i wouldn't have thought it'd be too different.

cheers mate found the other thread sandy wrote, my cars getting painted next week so going to put an engine in some time next year just getting some ideas

[Sandy 189]

We're building a 205 with the Prelude engine shortly.

[Guest adamw1988]

We're building a 205 with the Prelude engine shortly.

sounds good goin to see if we can get my friends car running first so might atempt it the end of 2008 you could maybe give me some pointers

[Sandy 189]

Sure, keep me posted.

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

There are people floating around in the background on this forum who are VERY knowledgeable on this subject and have been involved in Vtec conversions into several different cars of non Honda origin...... Ive always discussed puting a B series into a 205 with them and the result, we think, would be VERY good!

 

Maxi

[Sandy 189]

Eh?

 

I'll look forward to hearing how we should have fitted the H22 into a 309, K20 into a 309 and S2000 into a RWD 309 from very knowledgeable people

[maxi 36 1 Cars]

Eh?

 

I'll look forward to hearing how we should have fitted the H22 into a 309, K20 into a 309 and S2000 into a RWD 309 from very knowledgeable people

 

 

Wasnt having a dig at you sandy???? Whats all that s*it youve posted above all about.

 

Maxi

[Sandy 189]

Language!

 

I was being sarcastic. It read to me as if these floating people (who aren't identified and don't contribute relevant info to the forum presumably?) would have more knowledge on the subject. I'm only aware of one other person who even has a Honda engined 205 or 309 at an advanced stage currently, so for the time being, I like to think that I too am "VERY knowledgeable" on this particular subject.

 

Wrongly perhaps, but considering the time I spend writing up the stuff I've done, I took offence.

[cybernck 400 1 Cars]

i understood it as sarcasm but also though it was a little bit harsh .

[pug_ham 240 3 Cars]

Does the XU7JP4 suffer from oil surge like the Mi does? (ie; does it have piston oil spray bars & are the pistons crank or rod located)

 

Graham.

[Powers 13]

K series is the way forward! Thats only my opinion of course.

The downside of the B series is that the high power versions are expensive as they are so sought after, especially by mini owners.

Regarding any non Peugeot/Citroen group engine conversion it can work out very expensive, but I am sure its definitely worth it in the long run.

[Sandy 189]

I must have misunderstood Maxi. But I'm not sure most people are aware of the depth of the conversions we've done/are doing.

 

The XU7J4 is like an Mi16 with a sump baffle and GTi6 head, but without spraybars. I didn't have any trouble with mine on road or track, but didn't run it for that long. I had a proper pressure gauge and warning light. The rods are crank aligned.

 

The K20/24 is an amazing engine, but the prices are getting driven up now by demand. The H-series is a very credible alternative, better in some ways (simpler management needed, engine opposite driver, LSD standard on the H22A7, smoother) and is slightly easier to fit in the 205/309. Both of these engines in standard trim with TBs will give a more substantial power delivery than even a highly tuned B-series for only a minimal weight penalty. I've detailed the cost thing before, but I reckon it'll cost less than getting the equivalent power from a tuned XU to do a proper conversion (in total) with TB's and suspension improvements etc. It won't need rebuilds like a tuned XU, it won't use as much fuel (driving normally), it's less likely grenade itself, the gearboxes are better, VTEC means you don't have to live with severe cams all the time and there's a touch of novelty value! I'm not saying XU's are rubbish (they are still amongst the most best engines available), but nobody makes 4 cylinders like Honda IMO!

Edited November 20, 2007 by sandy309

[Batfink 201]

I have to say the s2000 engine and suspension was certainly one of the best options for my brothers 309. I dont think there are many engines with the right combination of weight and power plus a great gearbox. Most ford parts are too heavy (though the duratec engines are great), subaru and mitsubishi parts are too expensive etc

 

I certainly would look to other manufacturers engines if I wasent having to build mine to a set of race regs but the mi16 and other XU engines are still very good and when you mix and match the parts you can get some very powerful engines for not a lot of money