This Is Why 205s Really Piss Me Off

[GLPoomobile 958]

f***ing typical. Really f***ing typical

 

Haven't used the car in a week and a half so went out to to check it over just now, and pump up the tyres as I'm supposed to be setting off at 6am tomorrow for DES Developements. At the back of my mind I knew it something would throw a spanner in the works.

 

Sure enough, the f***er won't run.

 

It sounds like it's running on 3 cylinders. Really lumpy and chugs at about 500rpm with no throttle and then dies. It also stinks of petrol and I'm getting what looks like blue smoke out the exhaust. Now I'm not sure if it's actually over fuelling or if it just stinks because 1 cylinder is not combusting.

 

I've ruled out the ECU temp sensor by unplugging it. With it unplugged it just won't start at all. To be honest that's all I've achieved so far as

 

a) it's too dark to see what I'm doing now

B ) I can;t remove the spark plugs as the chambers are too deep and I've lost the rubber bung from the spark plug socket (never a problem with the 8V head )

c) I wasn't sure how to safely remove the leads with the engine running (without electricuting myself or shorting anything out)

 

Before anyone says anything, this isn;t so much a cry fr help as just a general whinge about how typical these french s*it boxes are. I have searched for answers and will start checking things tomorrow once I have a new spark plug tool.

 

However, can someone (and I know this is such an amateur question) tell me how I should safely whip each lead off to identify which cylinder is not firing?

 

I was supposed to be driving to Edinburgh this weekend so that's probably off now. f***er.

 

 

 

EDIT: I've not fiddle with anything to cause this. I took it for a thrash the Sat before last and it was flying. Then on the sunday it kept stalling in traffic as every time I let off the throttle the revs would dip below 1K and bounce back up etc, and die. I guess maybe this was the start of the problem.

Edited July 17, 2007 by GLPoomobile

[Richie-Van-GTi 70 2 Cars]

remove them one at a time before starting, or use insulated pliers.

[GLPoomobile 958]

remove them one at a time before starting, or use insulated pliers.

 

I was just worried about the spark arcing off of something and maybe blowing a component. I'm s*it with electrics so just being cautious. So if I hold the lead in place with some mole grips on the rubber part and have it pointing away from the engine I can safely start it and check?

 

 

Also, just thinking (remembering when I had a similar problem with my 1.9 8v), if it's a dodgy lead, theyre quite expensive for the MI aren't they?

[TEKNOPUG 3]

It could just be a plug that has failed rather than a lead. Seems more likely. When I've had similar problems I've just pull the plug and lead together and stuck it on the rocker cover to see if it's sparking. Not as if the XU's are known for fuel leaks or anything......

[taylorspug 7]

Check its not water collecting down the plug hole around the lead, this happens quite alot with MIs, and its a bloody easy fix! If not, plugs, leads, cap, arm. It cant be anything too bad if its managing to run on three.

[dani959 0]

I was just worried about the spark arcing off of something and maybe blowing a component. I'm s*it with electrics so just being cautious. So if I hold the lead in place with some mole grips on the rubber part and have it pointing away from the engine I can safely start it and check?

Also, just thinking (remembering when I had a similar problem with my 1.9 8v), if it's a dodgy lead, theyre quite expensive for the MI aren't they?

 

Grab a HT lead at a time and remove it with the engine running! Even if you get a spark on you it won't "damage" yourself! If the revs drop you will know that one is firing! It won't kill you, just make you feel a bit more alive, at the worst... it won't be a huge shock. Just don't touch any metal just the lead.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Check its not water collecting down the plug hole around the lead, this happens quite alot with MIs, and its a bloody easy fix! If not, plugs, leads, cap, arm. It cant be anything too bad if its managing to run on three.

 

 

We're all dry down there.

 

I hope it's just a plug, I really do. I don't fancy spending about £60 on a set of leads (are they that much for an Mi or am I just misinformed?), or christ knows what Pug charge for a replacement dizzy cap With my track record it's bound to be something less obvious, take ages to track down and costs a fortune to fix.

 

To top it off, the wife is nagging me big time about the fact that we won't be able to go to Edinburgh IF I can;t fix this, so now I'm feeling like s*it cos it's my car, and totally under pressure to resolve this. Can't bloody afford the train or plane (utterly ridiculous prices) and the coach times are crap.

 

I'll be up at the crack of dawn to try and crack this bugger

[Veero 1]

Dont do what I did once and remove the leads with the engine running. In a fit of depseration and (with hindsight) stupidity I removed one and the current arced through the casing into my hand, across my body and down my other arm to my hand leaning on the slam panel. Felt a bit breathless and weird for about 10 minutes. Not a good idea...

[acox99 73 1 Cars]

Dont do what I did once and remove the leads with the engine running. In a fit of depseration and (with hindsight) stupidity I removed one and the current arced through the casing into my hand, across my body and down my other arm to my hand leaning on the slam panel. Felt a bit breathless and weird for about 10 minutes. Not a good idea...

 

Its only about 13,000 volts, not too much!! but then its the amps that kill you and there aren't many of them! It gives you a bit of a shock and will only do you damage if you have a heart condition. I found out that i dont have a heart condition after a mate connected me to the mains for about 20 secs, now that left me shaking for a while and dazed me!!

[Miles 331 1 Cars]

Just don't go to Pug for the prices of the CAP and Lead's or you'll have a bigger heart attack than if you grabed a HT lead

GSF or ECP

But the cap's don;t seem to last long on some car's for some reason, It might even be a wire on a injector plug come out which I've known more than once.

[taylorspug 7]

We're all dry down there.

 

I hope it's just a plug, I really do. I don't fancy spending about £60 on a set of leads (are they that much for an Mi or am I just misinformed?), or christ knows what Pug charge for a replacement dizzy cap With my track record it's bound to be something less obvious, take ages to track down and costs a fortune to fix.

 

To top it off, the wife is nagging me big time about the fact that we won't be able to go to Edinburgh IF I can;t fix this, so now I'm feeling like s*it cos it's my car, and totally under pressure to resolve this. Can't bloody afford the train or plane (utterly ridiculous prices) and the coach times are crap.

 

I'll be up at the crack of dawn to try and crack this bugger

 

Leads are just under £35 from GSF, not sure about other places. Usually the GSF ones are Bourgicord (or whatever they are called) OE aswell. Ive seen a couple of caps/arms go wrong lately, so this is also a possibility. Hopefully not though, as a cap and rotor arm will cost you £50 or so (these are the expensive bits). They do seem to be freely available, the last cap and arm i got was through the chain of local motor factors and was delivered from another store in a couple of hours.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Well I'm not exactly making swift progress so far Procededings have been halted by running my battery flat.

 

This was just after I <think> I narrowed it down to which cylinder is the problem, so once I'm charged up again I can try and work out if it's the plug, lead or a cap fault.

 

I am quite pissed off though, at discovering that my injector plugs (on the loom) or in a terrible state. One doesn't even have the metal clip (or anything for the clip to hold) on it, so it's a wonder it stays in place. I have ruled it out thought as when disconnected the car runs even worse.

[jackherer 543]

I am quite pissed off though, at discovering that my injector plugs (on the loom) or in a terrible state. One doesn't even have the metal clip (or anything for the clip to hold) on it, so it's a wonder it stays in place. I have ruled it out thought as when disconnected the car runs even worse.

 

Keep a close eye on them because its very easy for the metal pins to get pushed back inside the plastic casing, so you could end up fixing the original missing spark fault (or whatever it is) but still having a cylinder missing due to an injector plug that has come loose while being removed to diagnose the original fault. I've had that happen and when you introduce a new problem fault finding gets very hard indeed.

 

If I was you I'd buy a new dist cap and arm just as service items because they are pretty flaky on Mi16s IMO. If they don't fix the problem leave the new ones on anyway and put the old ones aside as a known good set for future fault finding.

[GLPoomobile 958]

Rather than messing around, running my battery down by fault finding, I decided to go for broek and go to GSF for new leads and plugs. Twas the whole morning gone as I had to travel all the way to Heathrow by tube. Was gonna get a new cap too but they didn't have any.

 

So I've swapped the plugs and leads...

 

 

(NOTE: The leads set for the Mi16 that GSF supply, the king lead is too short if you have a wing mounted coil)

 

 

....I then unplugged the injectors and turned it over to burn off remaining fuel in the cylinders. Initial reacion good - turned imediately and ran smooth for about a second until the fuel was burned off.

 

Then plugged the injectors back in and tried running proper.

 

Started off well, revved OK, started to get a bit rougher, and within 5 seconds it was starting to get back to how it was before. I immediately summised that it must be over fueling.

 

Whipped the plugs back out and they are wet with petrol....BUT, they are also slighty oily I think (wet and a bit black). As I said inmy first post, I was getting what I thought was blue smoke from the exhaust.

 

So now I'm really worried. I'm getting oil in the cylinders, which can't be good! Head gasket? Rings?

 

I'm off out to do a compression test now. I may return in 30 minutes in tears and on the verge of burning the thing!

 

P.S. Although I thought I'd ruled out the ECU temp sensor last night, I am going to replace it as I have a couple of spares so might as well try it.

[Alastairh 47]

How good is each spark? Mi's and dizzy caps , a friend of mine keeps a spare in his boot!

 

Have you pulled the dizzy cap off and given it a quick wipe inside?

 

Had that a few times with an old 8 valve with moisture if laid up for a while

 

Also, be carefull when fitting those new leads, they can have a habit of breaking and arking if not clicked in the slots on the little cover

 

Alastair

Edited July 18, 2007 by Alastairh

[GLPoomobile 958]

I have to confess that I haven't yet looked inside the cap, or visually checked the spark on each plug (it's a bit difficult to keep it running while going to the front of the car to check for a spark, plus in this bright sunshine I'm thinking it wont be so obvious).

 

However, I'm convinced (at the moment, but bound to be proven wrong) that it is overfueliing.

 

I've done a compression test and the results were:

 

1 - 220ish psi

2 - 240ish psi

3 - 230ish psi

4 - 240ish psi

 

I thought those readings were a bit high but at least they are fairly even and not too low.

 

Secondly, I think I jumped the gun again by proclaiming to have oil in the cylinders. The plugs are wet and smell of petrol but look black, and leave black residue when wiped with a cloth. Would I be right in thinking it's not oil but rather wet soot from running rich?

 

Thirdly, I have yet again ruled the ECU temp sensor by swapping it with two others, and the car also stalls if I remove the plug while holding the revs at about 2k rpm.

 

I don't think it is ignition related as it revs cleanly with the injectors unplugged while burning off standing fuel. Then when they are plugged in again it will run smoothly for the first five seconds untill it, I presume, has collected too much fuel in he cylinders and starts going lumpy again. It also makes a very burbly, raspy noise from the exhaust when revved hard. Spitting petrol?

 

So providing I'm not leading myself up the garden path, I'm thinking:

 

1) AFM fault

2) ECU fault

 

What say you guys?

[jackherer 543]

Compression is good, you have a good engine there. Most testers are pretty inaccurate, consistency is the thing you want to see really. Is it a Gunsons one?

 

It could well be the AFM if its not the coolant temp sensor, check the plug and wiring is OK and the flap moves freely without sticking etc. Its very unlikely to be the ECU itself, most likely a connector somewhere or wiring if its not a fueling related sensor (AFM or CTS).

[Alastairh 47]

Well the good news your weekend doesn't involve cracking off head bolts

 

Compression, Its nice and even

 

Ecu fault - Generally rather rare, but can and has happened in the past. I would look else where first.

 

If it was me, i would clean the plugs up with a wire brush. Double check the condition of the cap + arm, and get it set up on a mot emissions machine, as it doesn't sound like its 100% on the mixture.

 

Obviously if the mixture isn't getting to decent figure by adjusting the afm, then chuck in a new ecu temp.

 

As for testing spark for future reference. When i do it, i dissconnect the injector plugs, with the plug out, just rest it on the top engine mount with the window down and you should be able to see how strong it is.

 

Before you go spending any more money, as Miles said above just check all connections are good, no pins have pushed out etc. I've had that in the past, and scratched my head for a few hours...

 

Alastair

Edited July 18, 2007 by Alastairh

[leitoo 0]

Had the same problem as you...

Took the car to my mechanic for a tune up, left rushing to my gf's and half way there the car starts dying on me... After a while it just did. When I tried to start it, it would run extremely rich and rough at around 500rpm and no throtle response.

I just wanted to torch the deam thing!!!! (even more so since my gf was waiting for me for an aniversary celebration wearing a nurse's outfit!!!!!! )

Abandonned the deam thing and of I went on a cab. I went back the following morning and had it towed back home.

Started looking around and found that the AFM plug was a bit loose... The fu***ng mechanic had forgotten to put the metal clip back along with the plugh and the deam thing had come loose!!! Worse part was it was only a few mm off. Put it back, fabricated a new metal clip and all was well!

So check both your AFM and it's connections.

[GLPoomobile 958]

problem solved, YAYYYYY!

 

My AFM is fubar.

 

I went up to Ian's (Maturin23) this afternoon and borrowed his AFM, ECU and dizzy cap.

 

I tried the AFM first cos it was the easiest swap and you lot reckoned the likely culprit. As soon as I had it off I noticed the flap was wide open. Then I fiddled with it and there is no spring action to it any more and it's a bit stiff.

 

So I've got Ian's AFM on there now and it's running fine.

 

why would the flap suddenly break?

 

More importantly does anyone have or know where I can get a working Mi16 AFM tomorrow or friday?

[jim205GTI 3]

Funnily i sorted out a problem with my AFM on my mi today......

 

The idle was a bit s**t , went through the usual culprits like leaking hoses etc to no avail. Took the AFM flap moved so pried off the cover to think about retracking it, lo and behold someone else had already done it but when they did so the black cog wasnt put back to its right position and so the spring wasn't working in the right place. Moved the cog round so arm started in the right place popped the afm back on the car. Now the car idles nice

 

EDIT. Might just be worth adjusting the coil to see if you can get the flap moving right

Edited July 18, 2007 by jim205GTI

[taylorspug 7]

Ive got an AFM you can borrow if you like.