205 Turbo (xantia Activa)

[Guest MikE]

Hi all. This will be my fiirst post, after reading articles for a while now!

 

Brief 205 history:

I wanted a 205 1.9 GTi for a while but struggled to find a late, clean and unabused example/ I then fell across a quite tidy '92(K) 205 1.9 Gentry Auto with the 1.9 DFZ engine and a faulty auto box. I promptly ripped out the box and all other auto bits and converted it to a manual with diesel box and clutch. Once completed a decent set of tyres, drilled/groved discs, pads, and a Bilstein suspension kit all round rounded it off into my present toy.

 

A year later when the MOT had run out I decided to tackle a few problems. The inbuilt foot bath complete with blue water (leaky heater matrix), lack of rear discs, removing the leather interior (no one likes a sweaty back) squeeking heater fan that likes to add screeching tyre effects to cornering regardless of speed, and the biggest problem.. Lack of GO!

 

With the foot bath sorted.. Wellies, it was time to move on the the engine. First off I thought about a later 1.9 GTi 130hp engine, then a MI16, but have now settled on a XU10J2TE turbo conversion. Not hanging about, and jumping in a bit blind. I've bought a '98® Citroen Xantia Activa Turbo with 66k on the clock as a donor.

 

So far, I have removed both engines, and temp fitted the Xantia lump into the 205 with a GTI-6 to mount for an idea of size. Being a fabricator/welder the actual 'making it fit' part isn't a huge deal, but the wiring is my Kryptonite!!

 

I've read quite a few articles using the search option and gained lots of useful advice and hints, but I'm still dazed over the wiring.. I've decided for ease, just to carefully mount ECU in the engine bay, but I'm not sure how (or what to use) to get the engine and car to 'talk' to each other. And how to install the VSS in my gearbox and still be able to use my cable driven speedo.

 

Thanks in advance for any more help, and congrats to all who have pulled this off already. Seen some top examples on here. Making my thirsty for mine!!

 

Cheers.

 

[whizzer71 0]

Did the said Activa have a keypad immobiliser?,Did you disconnect the ecu whilst live to overide the immobiliser ?

I have done one of these conversions before,wiring isnt too bad,worst thing about citroen wiring is everything is green yellow or grey,just have to bell everything out with a multimeter !.

First thing to do really is to get yourself a wiring diagram !.

 

Good luck

 

Tristan

 

[jim21070 2]

Hi Mike and welcome,

 

As you'll see from my sig I run an XU10J2CTE in its natural habitat They're a hoot, those engines.

 

As your donor came from a late Activa it is possible you have the transponder immobiliser and you may just have yourself a lot of heartache making it all work. I hope you have the earlier keypad one. '98 was the crossover year when the MK2 Xantia appeared.

 

For this immobiliser to work you need the ECU, the immobiliser, the receiver and at least one coded key. The key contains an RFID chip which is interrogated by the immobiliser and receiver. ECU, immobiliser and key MUST match each other and be part of the same set. I only have one working key with mine and I'm looking at the thick end of £100 to get another key coded

 

You'll have the probelm that if you need to get another transponder you'll have to give the VIN of your donor to a Cit dealer and prove you own it...

 

I don't know how easy it is to get these ECUs unlocked (if at all) but it is possible with the keypad type ECU.

 

If you have the transponder immobiliser you may be best off putting up a plea for an earlier unlocked keypad type or ditch the lot and go for something like a Megasquirt.

 

A Citroen XM VSS seems the way to go to retain a mechanical speedo. All later Xantias had an electronic speedo. I wonder if it is possible to transplant the innards of an electronic speedo into the 205 instrument pack. You'd have a nice, stable speedo needle then!

 

Tristan is right about Citroen looms but despite the proliferation of green and grey, each wire does have a number on it (repeated at intervals) that makes the task a little simpler. You need a good pair of eyes to see them though

 

BTW, what have you done with the remains of the donor? I'm always after MK2 Activa bits, specifically a gearbox and operating cables at the moment and if the ARB rams are in good nick those too, in fact all of the hydraulics as much of it is unique to the Activa.

[Guest MikE]

As far as I'm aware (using my extreme lack of citroen knowledge ) I have the earlier type Xantia, and yes it has the keypad immobiliser. Unfortunately though I didn't hear of disconnecting it whilst unlocked untill I had removed the engine. So to ease my work load and frayed temper, I might as well just seach for an unlocked ECU. I bought the Xantia Haynes manual which of course doesn't cover the Turbo.. But I do have AutoData on CD so that will come in useful for wiring diagrams!

 

As far as a VSS goes. The XM one you mentioned, does that electronically send a speed signal to the ECU (as the standard Xantia one does) but also able to accept a speedo cable? Sorry for my ignorance..

 

I still have the donor car in my drive way. If I have the MK1 Xantia are the bits of any use to you? Let me know what you want. (in detail because I have no clue about the suspension, apart from it's witchcraft..) But I did buy the car as a MOT failure with 'leaky FNS suspension'. I'll add a pic of the car.

 

Thanks for all of your help!

 

[whizzer71 0]

Yep the XM and The ZX 16v VSS have the three pin electrical connection and the speedo cable socket also,so thats that sorted,I have used the ECU doctor (www.the-ecu-doctor.co.uk) for unlocking ecu's in the past and he has repaired some also,very competetive rates too.

Jim is right about the no.s on the wires but I have to say that where the wires go into the moulded plugs the no.s tend to be right where the moulded gue stuff is and they also have a tendancy to just dissapear !.

 

If you need any assistance Mike,just PM me,I may be breaking a 205 turbo soon as the headgasket went on it(got ran for a few miles with no water in it,owner cant afford to repair it and the car is a dog),So there may be a ready converted loom and Ecu coming up for grabs,cant make any promises tho as still waiting for D.day from said owner.

 

Cheers

 

Tristan

 

Edited June 28, 2007 by whizzer71

[Guest MikE]

Thanks mate, you're an absolute legend!

 

I'll be trawling eBay and net for the gearbox. Let me know about the 205T on death row, I might just be putting my name down on some bits and bobs!

[Mikey G 3]

If you havent unlocked the ECU and the car is in no state to be started, try to find someone with the same car and put the ECU into it and unlock it that way, all you have to do is start the car then disconnect the keypad. Turn the car off with keypad still disconnected and remove the ECU, it should then be ready to be used in any car that doesnt have a keypad fitted.

 

If you were any closer i could do it for you.

[jim21070 2]

I still have the donor car in my drive way. If I have the MK1 Xantia are the bits of any use to you? Let me know what you want. (in detail because I have no clue about the suspension, apart from it's witchcraft..) But I did buy the car as a MOT failure with 'leaky FNS suspension'.

 

Shame it's a MK1 Mike (from my point of view but not yours with the ECU ), all the bits I need are MK2 specific And doubly a shame you're so far away as well )

 

The car looked quite nice but if it has failed its MOT on FNS leaks, that'll be the front Activa Ram (it drives the ARB up and down to correct roll) and they are mega-expensive to replace. In fact, this and the hydraulics in general cost so much to get back in order it easily outstrips the worth of the car. They are sublime to drive though when sorted

 

I'm happy the engine has found a good home

 

Mike, I'll PM you about some bits though if I may?

[Guest MikE]

Thanks for the ECU advice. You never know though, if I just happen to be in Wales I might just be knocking on your door with ECU under arm! I should stake out Tesco's carpark in the hope an Activa pulls up and jump him for the keypad...

 

So, a MK1 it is! It was a bit of a shame to break the car really. It's in such good condition apart from some laquer peel on the bonnet and the suspension. I did think about have the suspension sorted, but considering I managed to get the car cheap due to the suspension I thought it must have been quoted for before and the cost practically wrote it off. Let me know if there's any bits you may want.

 

I've never driven an Activa in full working form, but would love to have a go as I've heard from a few people that the suspension is an experience!

 

Cheers.

[Guest MikE]

Ok, a few new problems.. First off being the top engine mount. I'm using a GTI-6 top mount that fixes on to the existing Xantia mounting that holds the hydraulic pump and alternator, and bolts to the block. The problem I'm having is the Xantia pump is a bit tight to the front panel, and is different to my 205's PAS pipes. So, if I could use the mounting from my 205 including the alternator, PS pump, and top mount, it would make life a lot easier and make more room in the engine bay!

 

I took the mount off my 205 engine, removed the turbo engine from my 205 again and took the mount off that, only to find that they're completey different.. Bugger! Any ideas? I'm thinking of taking the mount to work and making some spacers and other parts to make it fit!

 

Also, is there a simple way af adapting the downpipe to suit the turbo manifold? Before I go medieval on it ass!

[Mikey G 3]

If you are keeping the PAS that could be a problem, you would need new pipes made up, and maybe convert it to electric like the saxo. Personaly i would junk the PAS.

We used a 2 litre Xsara top mount (both parts) and made our own alternator brackets, there is a bottom front mount available i think though for the alternator.

 

Exhaust downpipe is another thing, we took the car to a local custom exhaust maker and had them do it.

[whizzer71 0]

Also, is there a simple way af adapting the downpipe to suit the turbo manifold? Before I go medieval on it ass!

 

Use the Xantia downpipe,Cut the cat out of it and fabricate the rest,if you cut around the cat where pipe enters it theres a bit more pipe which goes inside the cat thus giving you a bit more to play with.

Then use your existing down pipe fabricate the two together and away you go !,As for the mount situation,There are many to choose from,The Zx 16V has some good bracketry on it (This is what I used on my 6' conversion),also 2.0ltr Zx and 2.0ltr std 8 V Xantia,all of which are plentifull in the old scrappies !.

Would recommend junking the Pas tho,Manual steering is FAR FAR superior and gives better feedback,just think your car will lose a bit of weight in the process !!,always a bonus !

 

Gook luck

 

Tris

[Guest MikE]

My head hurts..

 

I like the Xantia downpipe idea of fab'ing the two together except what I'm thinking is buy a full manifold back SS system for a 205, and buy a SS downpipe for the Xantia and fab' the 2 SS ones together and join to the rest of the system. Hmm..

 

As far as steering goes, I have always been a manual steering fan but when I got my 205 it was factory fitted with PAS. It's great though, you don't notice it when you're driving and it's very responsive, but it was handy for parking especially for the girlfriend.. It might be easier to make the 205 mount fit, rather than buy and change the steering rack. We'll see.

[sonofsam 5]

Me and a few others have made our own complete exhaust sytstem including DP

(plenty of pictures in my project thread)

really not that hard to do, using jetex exhaust products(ready fromed bends and easy push fit and clamp) and will come in alot cheaper that buying a SS full system. Think mine cost just over 60 quid

 

Buy your girlfriend some dumbells

[Guest MikE]

True Sam. I should just get my ass in gear and make an exhaust from Jetex parts and bits from work. Considering I spend 90% of my work day welding and working with stainless, I haven't got an excuse!

 

As far as the bracket on the engine goes, I've done some measuring (holding my finger up to the gaps, squinting, and guessing..) and think I can make the 205 one fit the Xantia, complete with PAS pump. I took the timing belt cover off which revealed 2 of the 3 holes needed for the 205 top mount, and a couple line up with the engine bracket once I've got some spacers and longer bolts to fill the gap. One of the needed holes is being occupied by a sensor sticking out of the block just above the oil filter which I guess is the pressure sensor, and the oil cooler sandwich plate is in the way.. Now, where's my grinder? Does anyone have a spare 205 top mount and the bracket that holds the alternator? To play guinea pig in my trial and errors!

 

Slightly off subject, with all the great British summer weather we're having I fashioned up a 'tarp tent' for my car to keep it and me dry, but the wind had other ideas and pulled out all my eyelets I used to string it to trees, but I've struck back with some salvaged 3 metre pallets! Pics of my series 2 tent to follow! I should just clear out the garage.. Actually, I should get the missus to do it. Cheaper than dumbells!

Edited July 5, 2007 by MikE

[Mikey G 3]

Save the hassle for other things, just go out and find a top mount from one of the other vehicles.

[sonofsam 5]

yep, and I can envisage another problem also that you would have to overcome

too wich is, the bottom pulley to run the PAS pump may fowl up on the bottom

radiator hose's. This happened to someone on here who didnt realise

you had to fit an 8v bottom pulley for this conversion.

 

The 205 engine mount is very sketchy on this engine, I tried it, but deemed it very unsuitable

and just plain dangerous without some more extensive fabrication, wich isnt worth

the hassle, as MikeyG says.

 

I not being a nah sayer as it's your choice if you want to run PAS, but

space for this conversion is very limited as it is ,read: Intercooler/boost pipes/water pipes.

 

Anyway, nice to have a fellow metal worker onboard

[Guest MikE]

Manual steering it is then. I suppose I'll have to change the rack, but they're not too pricey. And like you said, I'll save loads of room. So, I guess I change the crank pulley for the 205 one, and make a bracket of some description to hold the alternator and adjuster.

 

I'm trying to find a VSS for the gearbox which has the plug for the ECU and the cable part for the speedo.

 

As far as wiring goes, I guess I'm removing pretty much the whole Xantia loom, and seperate the bit's I need from what I don't. And removing the loom from the 205. Yay, fun..

 

Cheers again for the advice!

[sonofsam 5]

Yeah I think thats why this conversion takes a little longer than some others,

because of all the little bits 'n bobs you have to aquire, especially

if you get an incomplete engine and loom

 

Maybe try an online breaker for the VSS, you will have to be specific though

as to what one you want. ie, what car etc.

 

Here is how I mounted my alternator using a mount from an N/A 406.

I cut part of the mount off wich held the original PAS pump in place.

The alt. mounted straight to it, then used the lower 'swinging' part

of the 205 wich mounted to the block and also the 205 belt

I think.

 

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/djs...am/DVC01370.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/djs...am/DVC01373.jpg

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b393/djs...am/DVC01372.jpg

[Guest MikE]

Thanks Sam, that's ideal. I was planning pretty much the same. Remove the top of the Xantia mount that held the pump and make the 205 alt. fit. It's smaller and runs a different belt. I suppose I'm going to need a shorter belt than mine from a GTi with no PAS as my belt was driving the PAS too. And change the crank pulley to the 205 one.

[sonofsam 5]

Yep, if you have real trouble finding a belt, just take a measurement using a bit of string

or cord then wang down to your local Halfords or motor factors and compare/size

one up.

[Mikey G 3]

We made an alternator bracket out of some angle iron and a bit of tube

It actually looks ok and works really well!

There was a top bracket that was perfectly inline with the alternator so we modified it by cutting it down and i milled a slot to allow for adjustment. Worked a treat

[Guest MikE]

Ok, so here's the jobs for this week:

 

Mod the bottom mount to tilt the engine.

Mod the bracket that holds the alternator to accept the 205 alt. and lop off the PAS pump part.

Purchase and fit a new manual steering rack.

I think I've sorted out a loom and ECU from Whizzer so once I've got it, fit it!

 

Jobs for next week:

 

Need a longer speedo cable. (I remember reading somewhere on here a 405 one?)

Refit engine.

Buy and fit intercooler and start measuring up for pipe work.

Buy and fit oil cooler and fit pipe work.

 

Probably won't get any of that done, but it's good to be optimistic!

[sonofsam 5]

lol, the 'longer' speedo cable was a typo on

an old thread I commented on, it will actually be a longer throttle cable you need, known as the universal 405 cable

[Discostu 6]

Need a longer speedo cable. (I remember reading somewhere on here a 405 one?)

 

U'r local motor factors should be able to sell u a universal throttle (not speedo btw) cable that u can cut to length and build up u'rself, thats what i used for mine

 

Engine mount will only need extending about 15mm and if u still have cleareance issues with the brake servo fit an xs one as its smaller.

 

If u need any hints and tips there is a link to my project diary in my signature below. I also used an engine from a Xantia Activa